Freedom Isn’t Found in the Exit (And Scaling Doesn’t Have to Kill You)

Sep 9

Freedom after selling your practice isn’t guaranteed - and scaling doesn’t have to break you.

In this episode, we unpack what happens when “I’ll feel free after the exit” meets real life. We explore why peace comes from boundaries, systems, and aligned choices - not the transaction - while showing how a growing practice can actually create space.

Along the way, we share practical ways a therapist mom can protect energy, use AI tools for therapists to reclaim time, practice real self care for therapists, and boost therapist productivity without losing humanity. If you’re in the messy middle, this one’s for you.

What’s inside (and why it matters):

When selling doesn’t equal serenity: a therapist mom shares post-exit overload - and the surprising shifts that finally restored calm (hint: self care for therapists that looks like SOPs, not spa days).
Scaling without the spiral: how we lifted therapist productivity by delegating outcomes (not tasks) and shortening meetings - and why that’s the most sustainable self care for therapists we’ve found.
Real-life systems that stick: energy-based scheduling, admin-only days, and hard stops that any therapist can try this week to protect focus and raise therapist productivity.
Tech that gives hours back: specific AI tools for therapists for notes, reports, content prompts, and creative assets - plus the ethical guardrails we use so AI tools for therapists support care (not replace it).
Guilt, grace, and identity whiplash: how we navigate being a therapist mom who’s ambitious and present - and how reframing “self-care” as capacity building lifted both morale and therapist productivity with help from AI tools for therapists.

It’s strategic, human, and immediately usable - especially if you’re balancing clients, leadership, and carpool.

Join us and walk away with a calmer calendar, smarter AI tools for therapists, sturdier self care for therapists, and a kinder approach to therapist productivity as a working therapist mom.

WATCH THE FULL VIDEO EPISODE HERE!

[00:00:11] Colleen: I sold my practice to find freedom and somehow I ended up busier, more scattered and missing a tooth. Meanwhile, Jen is scaling and has more time. Let's talk about why. Freedom isn't found in the exit. Peace isn't necessarily lost in the scale. It's in the systems, the boundaries, and the choices we make. All right, well, let's hop into it. So we're talking this week about the idea that, when you're exiting or if you've had an exit or you're thinking about an exit, sometimes it doesn't always equal freedom. And when you're scaling, it sometimes doesn't always equal stress. And the, the way that I came up with this episode was last week, um, me and Jen and Erica sort of bounce around ideas and we're kind of like thinking about what the next show's gonna be about.

[00:01:02] Colleen: And it's usually, you know, kind of whatever's on the top of mind. And I was, I had four different emails open and 12 different tabs. And Jen was like, or I could tell she already had her schedule like three weeks in advance. She's like, now does October 17th work for you guys? I have a dentist appointment.

[00:01:24] Colleen: I'm like, what? I don't even know what's happening tomorrow. And, and not only is Jen that organized, but like what I've noticed is you'll be like, okay, so what roles do you guys wanna do? Like, what do you like doing? Like what do you like doing? That sort of thing. And that to me, signals someone that's, they have full executive functioning inact and their life is together.

[00:01:49] Colleen: And if you saw my office right now, um, it looks like like someone was looking for something, was trying to rob me and couldn't find what they were looking for. There's just essential oils because I thought I was gonna do an essential oil business. There's a skincare because I need to do that. Um, it's, it's, it's a mess.

[00:02:09] Colleen: So anyway, we started with this topic because I think it's kind of interesting that you would think if you've sold your practice, that you've got all this free time and you're just doing like long walks by the beach and. Your house is clean and that is not the case for me. And I think also you would assume that if you guys are scaling and you're still running your practice, that you're stressed beyond belief and stretch to the max.

[00:02:38] Colleen: And I think that's why most people kind of shy away from it because they're like, I don't, I'm already stressed. I don't need any more of that.

[00:02:44] Erika: Well, I was saying to, to Jen just a minute ago, I think you were leading into asking me again how I do it all, and I did brainstorm a list, you know, of things that I do to make everything work. So I'd be happy to share some of those tips, um, or things that I do, my strategies with you and everyone else today if you'd like.

[00:03:10] Colleen: I think that that is super helpful. Before we do that, can you just tell me the feeling like for you, like I, right now in this stage of life, I feel very overwhelmed. I feel very underwater most of the time and very like what's happening to me. It in a person that has normally for most of my life, been pretty high functioning and had it all together.

[00:03:37] Colleen: I would like clean up my to-do list. That's how much I felt like I was on top of things. Now I like literally just every day is like a new, like, okay, I just need to get these things done today. So. How, what's your feeling on a day-to-day basis? Are you pretty calm or what? What is that?

[00:03:53] Erika: Um, I think I've had a quieter stretch because it's been the end of the summer leading into the school year. So, um, I've been off from school the past couple weeks. I think that takes a lot of pressure off. I think I'm a pretty relatively calm person, so, you know, but I'm not sure. Call myself easygoing.

[00:04:18] Erika: I do get pretty worried about things from time to time, and maybe it's just kind of, ignorance is bliss. I try to not think about what's going, what's happening in the practice when I'm not there. And you know, trying to practice more compartmentalizing in my mind of just focusing on what's in front of me to help manage my feelings.

[00:04:47] Erika: But I've certainly had coaster of emotions around all that I do, and different feelings come up at different times. So all of the ones you've described, I have felt for sure.

[00:05:01] Colleen: I do get that vibe from you too, that you're more easygoing or just more relaxed in general. You're, you don't necessarily let your, your frontal lobe hijack your entire system.

[00:05:14] Erika: And if I do, if that does happen, I may not show it. I think I, it stays internalized. So it's, it's, it takes a lot for me to crack

[00:05:25] Colleen: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:26] Erika: to show it to the world.

[00:05:27] Colleen: Wow. What about you, Jen? What about your feelings? Like, how do you, is this how you, are most of your life always together, or do you feel like, okay.

[00:05:40] Erika: Honestly,

[00:05:41] Jen: Honestly, I got myself together the last few years for the business because I was like really burnt out and at a breaking point, and I promised myself at that time to not go backwards. So I spent a few years like really making solid changes. That was the time that I was thinking of selling as well.

[00:06:00] Jen: And so this is more new to me. Yes. Am I more like. I would say I'm not really a super organized person. I'm a planner by nature though, so I enjoy planning. I like seeing my calendar and knowing kind of what's ahead of me in the next week or month. I'm not planned out three months in advance though, but I, there are certain things like that that I do just to stay on top of things.

[00:06:24] Colleen: Well, I would love you guys to talk about what those systems are for you and what you do. At the end, I'll talk a little bit about what do you do in the meantime before you develop those systems. Uh, which for me is just asking for a lot of grace from everyone around me. I literally have an open apology on my outgoing voicemail and email autoresponder and website that's like, I'm really sorry I'm underwater everyone.

[00:06:51] Colleen: Um, but I'll talk a little bit more about that later. And I think, you know, the biggest actionable tools people can get from today is hearing from people that are living this. You guys have crazy busy lives and it sounds like you all have really good systems in place. So whoever wants to start, just get into it.

[00:07:11] Jen: I will start. Um, so I think the one thing that I do a lot of now is I actually subtract a lot off of my list. I don't add, for the longest time I was constantly adding things to my list, but I think I realized that systems became my self-defense against overwhelm because I went through such a period of honestly overworking.

[00:07:35] Jen: I think I've overworked my whole life.

[00:07:37] Colleen: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:38] Jen: I remember being in grad school and I was always working multiple jobs on top of being a full-time student, on top of trying to figure it all out. And I have been a time management hacker from like. College days. not that, and there are certain things that I follow today, but I think one of the things I do a lot of now is actually energy management, where I know when I work best, and so I work best in the mornings.

[00:08:06] Jen: My creative time should be in the morning if I have a hard task to do or writing definitely has to be in the morning and I save tasks later in the day, like admin tasks or I don't know, paying bills or maybe meetings like later in the day just because I feel like that's a better use of my time. I actually say no.

[00:08:27] Jen: A lot to a lot of people. So probably all the moms in my town think I never wanna hang out, but I just prioritize, you know, if it's a hell yes, I go. If it's a, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no. For the most part, I have a social life, I have friends, um, I like to do things, but I, you know, I try to really prioritize my time for that.

[00:08:51] Jen: And I do the same thing with work tasks. I do have a hard stop in my day when I typically do not work. So my kids, my younger kids get picked up at two 30 every day. So by 2:00 PM I leave the office and I go pick up my kids and that's it. So I do try to have that as a, as a hard stop. Um, I'm trying to think of other things I do.

[00:09:14] Jen: I have, I have something that I do called, capability cap, where like I just know where my capability limit is, so. I do business coaching on Thursdays. Maybe that's only seeing four clients that day. Maybe it's two clients, maybe it's one. Whatever it is. I just figure out what my cap is and I'm like, I feel good with that.

[00:09:35] Jen: I'm gonna stick to it. So sometimes that is like turning down money, other opportunities because I'm like, I'm just at my limit. So I, I do try to like protect my energy that way. I'm trying to think of other stuff I do. I mean, a lot of the things I do, I don't think is anything monumental. I think it's all these little micro things that I just have learned to do over time. I don't delegate task to staff. I delegate outcomes a lot. So I kind of give them guardrails where I'm like, this is what I wanna see.

[00:10:08] Jen: you can decide how we get there, but this is the end result that I need. So I give them parameters, I give them guardrails. But I think for me that's been super helpful because then I'm not micromanaging.

[00:10:19] Jen: I don't have as much follow up, but I'm still getting the outcome that we want. And I'm actually not a big proponent of meetings in the office. So

[00:10:30] Jen: I, and again, this has evolved over time. When I have meetings at this point, it's usually with just leadership and sometimes things can be done a 15 minute meeting.

[00:10:42] Jen: I think a lot of times we, we schedule things for an hour that don't need to be an hour. I don't know why we do that. It's just like a default. But, um, and then I, I'm not a part of many meetings in my office anymore. And again, this has evolved. I'm not at staff meetings, I'm not at group supervision, I'm not at trainings, uh, occasionally.

[00:11:01] Jen: And that's just evolved over time again of, and I'm, and I'm paying people to be in these roles to do those things. So I want them to lead and them to step up. And I feel like if I'm there, maybe that's not a good use of my time.

[00:11:14] Jen: And I don't know. I'm trying to think of other things. I try to automate as much as possible.

[00:11:20] Colleen: Okay.

[00:11:21] Jen: I try to schedule emails in bulk time batching. You know, if I'm just doing social media content or just doing writing, I try to block out my time and just do that. I think I'm having trouble now with like throwing the podcast in, because ideally I'd love to record and then focus on other topics that we're talking about, and then put them on social and write a blog and do all those things,

[00:11:49] Colleen: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:50] Jen: have not gotten there yet. those are some of my main little hacks.

[00:11:56] Erika: Yeah,

[00:11:56] Colleen: yeah, I, I just think about all the hats that we wear, and when you own any sort of business, right, you are looking at your bottom line. You're making sure a cash flow is healthy. Um, that takes a good amount of time, right? Like understanding what is this gonna look like, forecasting into the future. Like, what is this gonna look like two and three months?

[00:12:21] Colleen: Are we gonna have enough cash flow to support our people? and then even when you have good systems in place, like you're talking about where you've sort of now delegate it, and so each person has these different roles, there's still this level of oversight that you have to come in and say, you know, um, is this person doing what I need them to do?

[00:12:43] Colleen: And if they're not giving me a, a visibility dashboard, how are they reporting? And, and how does that align with what we need to get done? So I guess like when I have this like real fascination with you, Erica, and people that do all this stuff, I truly, I'm coming from that place of like, how does one get all of that done?

[00:13:08] Colleen: Like, and I'm just talking like, that's just the. Work piece of owning a practice. Then if you're an entrepreneur and you've got other side hustles, you gotta automate those, right? So we automate this podcast, and then I think about, I get 72 dings during the day and I turn them off, right? So I'll turn off notifications, but like by the end of the day, I've got, um, purple shin guards tonight for practice.

[00:13:34] Colleen: We're gonna meet here. Does anybody wanna do Starbucks? Um, hey, little Jimmy's having a party. He doesn't like Legos, like all, all day long, right? And so then I've gotta flip into that mode, go get the prescriptions, go to the teacher's thing, back to school night, and then, oh, I'm married. I need to like, maintain that.

[00:13:56] Colleen: I should probably schedule a date night and oh, I gotta pay the babysitter for the last date. You know? So it's like all of this stuff, I guess. What does that actually look like for you guys in terms of your to-do list, like your, do you have a master to-do and then how do you like, like cut yourself off and move into the other piece?

[00:14:17] Erika: I have a work to-do list or a practice to-do list and a personal, so I work on both or I prioritize. One or the other for the, the day that I happen to be in. Um, I do focus a lot more on household and kids on some days, and then others are more practice, work and business oriented. then there's plenty of days that I'm doing something for everything, like you're saying, like, you know.

[00:14:51] Erika: Shopping for water bottles happened this weekend for school. Um, and I also did a little work for this, for the podcast, you know, but, um, my priority has been with family and the household. Um, I have, you know, some things that I do to strategize. I block one day off for just administrative tasks, so no scheduled appointments on that day, and that really gives me some breathing room because whether I am seeing my small caseload of clients or providing supervision for my staff, those are in the chair hours.

[00:15:34] Erika: So, you know, you can't do much when you're doing back to back appointments. So I need at least one day where I don't have that happening. one day a week, I, I just go to bed super early, so I finish work, I have dinner, I do a couple of household tasks, let the dog out, take him for a walk, um, wash the dishes maybe and get in bed really early.

[00:16:00] Erika: And I may not sleep right away, but I just take that time to rest and if I'm tired, I will go to sleep. Um, but that's just kind of the midweek way to restore myself to get through the rest of the week. in terms of, you know, food, I. Do a lot of cooking. When I have my kids with me, I like to know that I'm feeding them healthy meals, but I'm much more likely to eat what, I guess we've seen this on social media recently, girl dinner when my kids are not with me.

[00:16:36] Erika: So, you know, prepared meals, take takeout or like easy light fare, like maybe avocado toast and a, you know, a hard boiled egg or something. Just really easy. Fills my stomach. That's it. Um, I do most of my shopping for everything online and have it delivered. that really saves me a lot of time. I do still go to the grocery store.

[00:17:01] Erika: That's like the one place I show up and shop. I like that. That's just a quirk I have. I have to give credit to building a support team. I have, um, a therapist, a consultant or supervisor, uh, a business coach, a leadership group, and I belong to a, a, a spa, a local spa that has a membership where you get a treatment each month.

[00:17:29] Erika: And I do that for self-care. So, that's really important to me just to take that time out for myself. Maybe I'll build up to two spa treatments a month. Um, and then, like Jen said, with delegation, you know, I outsource getting the lawn mode, and that's something I do at home and at work in the practice.

[00:17:54] Erika: I have tried to, you know. Give team members the opportunity to take on more, more tasks, more responsibilities all the time. and I think my prevailing mantra or affirmation for all of this is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. you know, sometimes a spelling error or, um, typo or little, you know, inaccurate grammar happens in something I send out, but I try not to worry about that and just focus on the overall getting things done mentality instead of doing it perfectly.

[00:18:33] Erika: though my, my team told me about Grammarly, so now I have that installed on all my devices between autocorrect and moving fast. Like I think it all works against me somehow. So those are some strategies, hacks that I utilize that kind of cross the personal professional realm.

[00:18:59] Colleen: I love that you authentically, at least to me, it authentically feels like when you're with your kids, you're with your kids, and then when you're working, you're working. I think that's such a zen way to be. I think that's the way that a lot of us aspire to be. And so there's like, I know there's the psychologist me that says what I want clients to hear, and then there's the Colleen, me who's like, I mean, my husband will be like, do you, do your patients, see how you live?

[00:19:33] Colleen: You know, because it's like, do as I say, not as I do,

[00:19:36] Jen: But Colleen, you work from home often, right? Are you primarily from home?

[00:19:41] Colleen: uh, always from home. Yeah.

[00:19:43] Erika: think

[00:19:43] Jen: I think that adds a, a different dynamic because I know for me, I, I've been working home more now because I'm trying to, again, do some extra things on top of the business. But when my kids were your kids' age, I had to physically go into the office to work and come home and have that boundary.

[00:20:02] Jen: But that was just me at the time. I understand. So I just think you have to give yourself a little grace, because I think it's, I personally think it's very hard to work from home when your kids are home, you know?

[00:20:14] Colleen: that's so true there. There are some real benefits I think, to having a physical workspace that you go to and I mean, think about our parents, right? Like when they went to work, they went to a different building and they were there. There was no like ability for your kid to pop in and be like, Hey, have you seen my. You know, it was like, and that I think is all, it blends in and at first you kind of kid yourself and you're like, great. Like I'm doing it all. Like I can be at home and when they get home from school and I can work, but like, you're not really doing anything well.

[00:20:50] Jen: Right. And you probably feel scattered. Yeah.

[00:20:54] Colleen: It, it's a lot of code switching. When you are, you're deep in a train of thought. I like to write a lot and I'm writing like a blog for the website and I'm thinking about, you know, ketamine i IV therapy and it's effects on depression. And I'm like trying to give some really good analogies. There's something that, it's a different part of the brain that you're in when you're doing that.

[00:21:21] Colleen: And then you have a kid come in and Cole, his recent fascination is watching fat animals squeeze into tight spaces. So, so then my brain goes into that world and there is a part of my brain that is like, that's really funny.

[00:21:44] Jen: Hey, that's a nice break from, uh, from sometimes doing some of the work we do. It's like, Hey, come on in. I'm, you know, let me see this video.

[00:21:52] Colleen: He's like, mom, you gotta see this cat. And I mean, the cat is fat and he's trying to get through that doggy door and it's not gonna happen. And then it happens and you're like, I could watch this all day long.

[00:22:03] Jen: Yeah. Well, Colleen, I, we have a question for you because listen, you're, you've sold, so what has the biggest maybe struggle for you have been at this stage for selling a business and.

[00:22:18] Colleen: so the biggest struggle, I think that's just sort of set the emotional undertone for me. And I think probably I'll have a better view of this as time goes on. So it's like trauma is kind of like, you know, when your hands on your face like this and then you're, you, you can't really see it while you're in it.

[00:22:40] Colleen: It's only until you know, time and therapy that you can pull it back and go, oh my God. I was, I was in the middle of recovering from this thing. And there was truly, I was talking to, to Mike about it the other day, the the little t not capital T trauma of being in a group practice that sort of just took a life of its own and started to really run me instead the other way around.

[00:23:09] Colleen: And all the stresses that came with that, whether that be waking up to a resignation email from an employee that wasn't happy or waking up to an angry email from a patient that's saying they're gonna go to the board. Um, getting, you know, nasty lawyer emails from a disgruntled employee. You know, it just, it started to feel like this deck of cards and I was truly in this like hypervigilant state for a long time.

[00:23:38] Colleen: I don't like getting into trouble, you know, I'm that typical type A student. I was always the good student. I never got into trouble. And to have a patient be upset with me, you know, I didn't get, I got into this field to be light and to, to help. Not for people to think that I was somehow like not doing my job right, and certainly didn't wanna be disliked by my employees.

[00:24:03] Colleen: And so it was traumatic and my husband was like, I would say Big T and I, I don't know, who knows? Uh, but it, I'm still reeling from that and I think I'm in, and I'm not a trauma specialist, but I think I'm in some sort of post. Traumatic state where I can't rest. I'm still in that like sympathetic arousal of like, uh, something's like, I'm gonna, somebody's gonna send me something again today that is gonna be, I'm gonna get into trouble or something.

[00:24:37] Colleen: Right. And it's this constant feeling of stress. So that has been the weirdest thing because I'm, I'm like, intellectually you're good. Like your practice is sold. You're, you're good, you're okay. You're gonna be okay. But my body is in a different state.

[00:24:56] Jen: Yeah, that makes sense and it probably is gonna take you some time to have your nervous system become more balanced and calm and

[00:25:04] Colleen: Yeah.

[00:25:05] Jen: this new normal for you.

[00:25:07] Colleen: Yeah. Um, I, I'll also say too, that the other challenge, and I have to think that this is. Part of being that like Enneagram seven, which is like, sort of like the, um, v von, you know, we love, we love a good time, we love saying yes to everything and really have a hard time staying in the silence or in the not knowing. I was dreaming for so long before I sold the practice of all the stuff I was gonna do. I'm gonna write a book, I'm going to make all these self-help tools. I'm gonna do a YouTube channel, I'm gonna do a podcast. And so it was like, the day you get out of prison, you're like, what's new? What's changed in 20 years?

[00:25:53] Colleen: Oh my God, what's a cell phone? How does this thing automatically dry my hands? You know, like my brain is on overload because I, I truly am in this sort of eustress state as well, which is a happy stress. Like there's so much I wanna do. And really not enough time in the day to be able to do all that. And so I think that most psychologists, most entrepreneurs would probably say, just like you started off with Jen, that part of success is in the no, not in the yes.

[00:26:30] Colleen: It's saying no and knowing what to say no to and knowing when to say yes. And I really struggle with saying no to things. I feel like I'm turning down an opportunity. It's, it's like the, the FOMO.

[00:26:46] Erika: Well, there's still plenty of time to do all those things that you named, you know, it sounds like a bit of overwhelm could happen when suddenly you're free of something that's been keep holding you back for a while. I have that, you know, idea too, that if I stopped doing this eventually I would have expansive time and unlimited projects I could pursue.

[00:27:13] Erika: But it's really, it's interesting and helpful to hear what your experience has been. Colleen.

[00:27:20] Colleen: Yeah, it's exciting. And we also live in this sort of AI bubble right now that I feel like I want to, I, I don't wanna miss out on this AI piece. I think there's so many exciting things that we can do, both leveraging our expertise as therapists. And one of the reasons why I'm so excited about this podcast, because I just think now more than ever, we've got such technology at our fingertips to be able to.

[00:27:51] Colleen: Get our work out there to a broader audience in a way that we've never had that ability before. And so I get so consumed by that. I'll give you an example. So I was working on my personal website the other day, and if you go to my personal website, dr colleen long.com, you can see like all these little boxes.

[00:28:13] Colleen: And I wanted it to look like a toy box because that's the way I think about when I'm creating all these different concepts and ideas is like, it's like a toy for me. I get that dopamine rush and that hit and I really get excited about it, but

[00:28:31] Erika: there's only so

[00:28:32] Colleen: only so much time in the day. And so, you know, just think about this podcast alone, right?

[00:28:38] Colleen: And you've gotta record it, but that's only a small slice of it. Then you've gotta think about the rough script. You gotta think about. Um, what the social media posts are gonna look like. How are you gonna engage your audience? You've gotta do a SWOT analysis on other podcasts and thinking about who gets the most engagement, what is the most engaging, what do listeners wanna hear?

[00:29:01] Colleen: What's the most valuable content, right? So that alone could be its own job, and then you

[00:29:06] Jen: It could be.

[00:29:07] Colleen: have all these other things that you're doing as well. And, um, there's a new tool out called Nano Banana. Have you guys heard of it? Okay. So

[00:29:17] Jen: I love, I love when you give us one though. I feel like I always go back and re and research it.

[00:29:22] Colleen: I feel like I wanna do a spinoff segment from this podcast where it's like calling AI tool of the

[00:29:28] Jen: you should definitely do that.

[00:29:30] Colleen: I feel like, you know, because I just watch the other YouTubers, you know, the, the whipper snappers, the 20 somethings that are out there that are using this new technology. And then I figure out like, ooh. We could use this for this. So I was playing with this nano banana, and it's essentially Google, Geminis, Dolly, or Midjourney.

[00:29:52] Colleen: So Dolly and Midjourney were the AI that were image creators first. I think a lot of the challenges that most people have, if you're not a coder or a graphic designer, is that the prompting, if you don't have the prompting right, the image that you get is not really what you were looking for. And so a lot of people just kind of gave up on it.

[00:30:11] Colleen: Um, plus there's like, you're in Discord and I don't, I don't even understand that. So Google, Gemini, nano Banana has made it very simple. You just type it in and it's like chat GBT or Google. It's exactly that. Google like feel, which is make this thing right. And I'll even go into chat GBT and say, help me create a prompt for my personal website.

[00:30:39] Colleen: I want it to look like. Very clean aesthetic, white background. I'm in like sort of a pastel fitted suit, make me thin, and I'm like sitting on a stool blowing bubblegum chat. GPT will then come up with all that language of like negative space and like what the prompt needs to look like. And then I go into nano banana.

[00:31:04] Colleen: And if you look on my website now, it's, it's just, it looks like a photographer. Like I had a professional session. And so I just think like that's just one example of one tool that, that before as a professional, you'd have to go find a photographer, you'd have to go do a shoot day and take all day.

[00:31:26] Colleen: They'd give you the images. You'd have to go through the images, costly, and then you're like, uh, I guess this is what I'm using on my website for the next 20 years. Not with nano banana. Like you can just. Like do it, like, I was like, make me in a spacesuit and it just does that in three seconds, you know?

[00:31:43] Colleen: So I'm just so excited about the possibilities that we have now, and I feel like time's running out. Like I gotta, like, I gotta, I have to do all of it now.

[00:31:55] Jen: Colleen, you light up when you talk about ai. You should a hundred percent try to find time to spend one day a week just researching it.

[00:32:04] Colleen: Yeah. Well, and my, so my mom was a computer programmer and my dad was an electrical engineer, so I'm sure I've got that like techie, you know, left brain that loves all its geeky stuff. But it, I think will be a game changer for so many therapists. So like, when we're talking about off the chair and we're talking about, you know, how do you get off the chair?

[00:32:28] Colleen: I do think AI is gonna be one of those tools for people where, you know, as you start to create your content, let's say that you're creating a meditation deck that you're gonna sell on Amazon. Well, now they've got these tools that you could illustrate all of those cards and have that up, that product up to sell that day, making money in your sleep.

[00:32:53] Colleen: Versus five years ago, I was on Fiverr and Upwork trying to find a graphic artist, and then they would come back to me with like three proofs and I had just had to pick one of those. It's just, it's changed the game so much for us.

[00:33:08] Erika: So our next, our next AI post of us will be us in spacesuits.

[00:33:16] Colleen: I'm thinking, I'm thinking an an astronaut

[00:33:19] Erika: I think that's perfect.

[00:33:20] Colleen: why not? You know, why not? So what about for you guys? When you think about like how you're using ai or any technology for that matter to help you get your bandwidth back and to feel more on top of your life? Do you guys use anything like a notion, a sauna, clickup? Like what, what tools do you use in everyday life that you felt like are really helpful that listeners could maybe have as a takeaway?

[00:33:56] Jen: I just started using Notion and so far I like it. My COO uses it and she was convincing me that we can do a lot of cross, I guess, um, comparisons and like we can send each other a lot of things through there. So that's super helpful with planning.

[00:34:11] Colleen: Yeah. It now as notion. Like Asana. That's the only one that I'm familiar with, where you're kind of like moving one task from one column to the next as it's going through different stages.

[00:34:23] Jen: a little bit, but it's more like. I almost feel like it's, it's more of an organiza. It's similar. I don't know how to, I haven't like delved into it long enough. It's, there's different ways to use it. So I think the way that I'm using it is more for like agendas for meetings. More of my brain dumping.

[00:34:43] Colleen: Okay, love the brain dump. That's one thing I love doing in the morning is the brain dump.

[00:34:49] Jen: Yes.

[00:34:52] Colleen: That sounds really bad. What about you, Erica? What things do you feel like have been really helpful for you to feel more on top of life?

[00:35:01] Erika: Um, I don't know if I have any great technology hacks to share. I think a lot of my brain is downloaded into the Notes app on my phone. I have succeeded in making that more organized. Like you can divide the notes into folders now. And, you know, I, I utilize the little checkoff option, so I'm sure it's similar to some of the other, You know, apps that are specifically around organization. Um, but that, that works for me. I'm slow to adopt new technology, but um, when I do, it usually proves beneficial

[00:35:44] Colleen: Yeah, I think there's two camps in our field where you've got therapists that are like you, where you're like, ah, I don't know, like the jury's out. And it can be just from a, like a, I'm comfortable writing my own notes or a privacy standpoint of like, yeah, I know they say it's HIPAA compliant, but I don't really trust, trust it.

[00:36:05] Colleen: I think that can be part of it. And then I also think we have another camp that's like, what else can it do? You know, which is where I'm at. When I discovered Notes Zap, which was the, it's the HIPAA compliant ai. Um, it was like all of a sudden I didn't have 15 minutes of note writing after each session because it was recording it.

[00:36:29] Colleen: And for me, who does reports and writes reports, when you've got someone at intake that's going through their whole life and how these concerns have sort of been interwoven throughout that I would then have to remember and type all that out after the session. Now it can record all of that, create a transcript and even prompt it to write in a report format.

[00:36:54] Colleen: It saved me hours and hours on each case.

[00:36:58] Jen: The other thing I love about like Claude or chat, GPT is as it obviously knows you, and you have your own, you know, I guess, what is that called? Your own, um,

[00:37:08] Erika: your GT

[00:37:09] Jen: GPT system, right? Like, I love that I can type in something and it knows me so well that it's connecting my three past ideas

[00:37:18] Erika: and like,

[00:37:19] Jen: and like, Nope, this is where you're headed, this is where we're gonna go.

[00:37:22] Jen: And I love asking it questions like that of like, what direction should I take next? I wanna do X, Y, and z. So I love that

[00:37:30] Colleen: Yeah,

[00:37:31] Jen: Yeah.

[00:37:32] Colleen: I, I think that's really cool that it can start to almost write in your voice. It starts to understand your voice. I will say, I think I'm getting dumber as a result of using ai because when I was writing reports, you know, let's say five years ago, I would take the. Science, and then the art of the science was then relaying that in a way to the patient that they understood that was relatable.

[00:38:01] Colleen: It's like, yes, executive functioning is impaired compared to cognitive functioning, but what does that mean? Right? And only a few people are gonna read that and understand what that means. But if I can write that in a way that it's like her brain actually works really, really quickly, but in the areas where she needs to plan, that's where she finds those challenges.

[00:38:23] Colleen: So I got really good at that, and then AI came in and I was like, help me say this in a way a lay person would understand. And it's like, way better than I would've ever wrote in three seconds, not two hours. Right. So it's, I think it's fantastic from that standpoint of being able to break down con like.

[00:38:46] Colleen: Sort of abstract concepts in a way that every person can understand. And um, I also think just in terms of its ability to analyze documents. So like Bastion, GPT is one of those HIPA compliant ones that can take, you know, tons and tons of documents. And as a psychologist, you're looking through lots of reports, a lot of time, scan all of it and go, oh, but wait, in fourth grade, remember they had an IEP And you might not have remembered that if you were doing that on your own.

[00:39:17] Colleen: So that's where I think that those tools can be really, really helpful when I. Think about the place that I'm in, in life right now. And I guess what I'm wanting people to kind of take away from this is that it's not always just this like pot of gold at the end of the rainbow If you sell your practice. And, and don't get me wrong, life has gotten immeasurably better and less stressful as a result of selling my practice.

[00:39:45] Colleen: Um, but

[00:39:46] Colleen: wherever you go, there you are. That's that. You know, I think it's John Kazen that said that I'm not, or maybe he re-said that, but

[00:39:56] Erika: where do you go

[00:39:56] Colleen: wherever you go, there you are. So

[00:39:59] Erika: if you're

[00:40:00] Colleen: if you're stressed for most of your life, you're still gonna find a way to be stressed after you sold your practice. And as a, as a young kid, I remember watching my mom and she would get so stressed and she retired and she got like a really easy job.

[00:40:17] Colleen: She's like, I'm not gonna do this anymore. And then she was still that stressed, even with the easy job. And it was a impactful lesson for me because I realized wherever she goes, there she is. And now here I am in my forties still learning that lesson for myself of like, no one, no one's gonna give you that magic bullet.

[00:40:39] Colleen: Like you're not gonna just all of a sudden sell your practice and then be like the zen person you always want it to be. You have to take that time back and recreate your day in a more intentional way. I think every day you have to learn to do it over again of like, how am I gonna be intentional about this day versus reactive, which so many people become reactive to their inboxes.

[00:41:06] Colleen: They check their inbox, oh yeah, I gotta do that. And Oh yeah, I gotta do that. And then by the end of the day, you've done nothing that you wanted to do and everything that everybody else needed you to.

[00:41:15] Jen: Yeah, that was me for years.

[00:41:16] Colleen: Yeah.

[00:41:18] Erika: Yeah. So I

[00:41:19] Colleen: So, I mean, I think that's, um, that's the goal, right? Is realizing life is short. There's never gonna be a day where your to-do list is all done. You're like, well, what should I get into today? Time to start playing the piano. You know, it is time to start playing the piano. Now. You have to take that time back because you will always fill up that time with the must dos or the need to dos versus the like to dos, right?

[00:41:51] Erika: Yes.

[00:41:52] Colleen: yeah, and, and I, when I'm, um, talking about some of this creative stuff too, I love this stuff. Like this does not work for me. The writing and the AI and what we are doing, the podcast and all of these creative things are so fun and. I think as a mom you get, or at least for me, I get that mom guilt where my kids are always kind in and they see my head behind a screen and they're like, mom, what are you doing?

[00:42:20] Colleen: It's a holiday. You wanna go to the pool? And I'm like, no, I don't wanna go to the pool. I wanna like, play around on AI and like write stuff and make stuff. And I actually sat down and wrote like a children's book for them about, oh, um, a mom with a hot chocolate room upstairs and how she loved to create hot chocolate all day, but then she had these like little candy trees that needed her as well.

[00:42:43] Colleen: And I was trying to create it as a way for the kids to understand that I really, I love them so much and I wanna be with them, but also there's this other thing that I'm really, really passionate about that I get to do.

[00:42:55] Erika: I think that's important to model for them, you know, for them to see that we have meaningful careers that we love and that, you know, we're contributing to the greater good and you know. Society in a positive way, especially in a time when things are so fraught and stressed and, you know, somewhat backwards.

[00:43:18] Erika: Um, you know, it's, I think it's, it's helpful. I know that's important to me, especially with my daughter, for her to see me engaging and, you know, I don't, she said from. At the time, she was little. She's not interested in becoming a therapist. She doesn't wanna listen to other people's problems. She has more of a scientific mind.

[00:43:40] Erika: You know, I think some of what you've shared about yourself, Colleen, you know, she loves sciences and is taking like all science and math classes in eighth grade this year. So I see her going in a different direction, but I hope to inspire her to, you know, do that with everything she's got. so I think it's really healthy for, for our kids to see us love our work and to be inspired by it, and to also have them and love them, you know?

[00:44:10] Colleen: Yeah, I think it's so powerful. I mean, listen, maybe your daughter will be like a PhD and she's just back there doing all the, the research that helps people in a different way. So I think it can be done in multiple

[00:44:23] Erika: Definitely I agree with you.

[00:44:26] Colleen: what about you, Jen? What do you feel like, do you feel that constant tug with your kids, or do you feel like now that they're a little bit older, they're like, are they outta that phase where they're constantly bidding for your time?

[00:44:38] Jen: Yeah, I'm, I'm a little bit out of that phase and I also am in such a better phase for my balance and, and work. But I remember being where you, where, where you are.

[00:44:49] Colleen: Isn't it funny how people, and I think well-meaning too, I remember when I had my twins and my third, and they're 17 months apart, so I would have a triple stroller that I was pushing around in Boston in the cold. And people would come, you know, it's great conversation piece. People would just come up and be like, oh my gosh.

[00:45:09] Colleen: And I would remember people go going, it goes by so fast, enjoy it. And I was like, oh, okay. Not fast enough. You know,

[00:45:21] Jen: I know.

[00:45:22] Colleen: it felt like time stood still in those moments. And, um. I do, I know moms that they do like really love those, those moments. But I guess where my brain always was, wasn't always in the creation of things.

[00:45:39] Colleen: And I would still, like, I wrote a book as they were growing up. Like that was, it's always been almost like a compulsion. And so

[00:45:47] Colleen: I,

[00:45:48] Colleen: I do really feel a push to enjoy it because I know the season is short and it is just that a season when your kids are young and eventually, um, you're gonna know them more as an adult than you'll know them as a child.

[00:46:01] Colleen: Right? So I know it's short and yet there's still this like, push to be, uh, everything to everyone and to still like, wanna do the stuff that I like to do too, which is play for me. So one suggestion that I would give to people who are maybe not as. Um, close to on the spectrum as, I don't wanna say spectrum, uh, but you know, on, on this range where Jen, where you hear Jen and Erica, and I think sometimes people could maybe hear that and compare and go, well, gosh, I'm just not there.

[00:46:40] Colleen: Or I, you know, what came up for me, Erica, as you were talking was like, uh, gosh, I want to be present. Like what? I wanna be fully there, but I never feel like I'm fully there. So for those people who are still struggling with feeling like you just don't have it all together, here is just one tip or piece of advice.

[00:47:02] Colleen: So I'm doing this as a social experiment, but last week I started to think about how underwater I am and I truly don't know if this is just a season of life. And like other moms hear this and they're like, yeah, it's called being a mom to three kids under 12. Um. Or if we live in some weird zeitgeist that's this like over compensatory place from the eighties, we're living in this like child-centric place that's so child-centric and everything's about like, watch what you say in front of them.

[00:47:40] Colleen: They're downloading that programming all the time. So you're just monitoring yourself. I mean, we don't even, I remember my parents would just watch like Poltergeist if I wanted to watch tv. I was watching Poltergeist and I was like 10. Now I, I don't know that I've ever watched an adult show in the presence of my kids.

[00:47:56] Colleen: It's like,

[00:47:57] Jen: way. Yeah.

[00:47:59] Colleen: it's like your whole life has lived for them and curated just for their little, you know, blossoming minds. And it's exhausting. And not only that, but like the level of engagement and involvement that I think is expected of you. Both as a mom and a dad is not realistic, number one. Number two, we can't do it all.

[00:48:22] Colleen: Yep. Here we are still trying. And so I just, on my voicemail last week, I had, uh, 54 missed calls and yes, I used the robo blocker and silence. Unknown callers still 50, and I just put in my outgoing voicemail. Hey guys, I'm really sorry. If you wanna learn more, go to dr colleen long.com/ I'm sorry. And there's a long open apology letter to everyone that's trying to get hear back from me.

[00:48:53] Colleen: Whether it's a patient waiting on a report or a teacher that needs to schedule an IEP or my mom who, who doesn't probably know how to go to my website. It's like I don't, I truly don't know how to do all the things all at once. And so. My hope is to appeal to the humanity in people by just asking for grace.

[00:49:19] Colleen: And as mental health professionals, I think we're in a unique place to set examples for others to ask for help. Like we always say that like ask for help. Self care, right? Someone commits suicide and you're like, gosh, had they only just asked for help? And it's like, what does that look like? I'm not gonna call you Erica and go, Hey, can you watch my kids? But I might ask for grace. And I think that's what I'm suggesting today, is even if you're overwhelmed and I'm curious to hear other's thoughts, if you think it's a season of life or if it's like truly we're living in a strange time,

[00:50:01] Colleen: Just asking for compassion from people. Like, I'm just really sorry.

[00:50:05] Colleen: I am underwater right now and I don't know. I don't know when I'm gonna be back. I'm just treading right now. And hopefully I'll see those lines in the carpet, those vacuum lines in the carpet once again. But until then, I'm sorry.

[00:50:20] Erika: Yeah, I think there's this, you know, myth about moms having to be perfect and, you know, uphold a certain persona, or we are judged and shamed quickly for perhaps, you know. Maybe letting our kids watch the rated R movie, which I have and, you know, or leaving for a couple hours to go record a podcast on a holiday, um, when it should be blissful family time.

[00:50:52] Erika: I mean, women are held in general to much higher standards than men are. And so I think we're cutting through layers of, uh, cultural stereotypes here. You know, that's what you're speaking to is, you know, can moms get a break and can moms be not judged as harshly for living and having lives and maintaining a sense of who we are, uh, despite all the pressures of motherhood and all the, you know, the do's and don'ts of motherhood.

[00:51:32] Erika: It's a good question. And, you know, I don't know that we're. As a culture there, there quite yet. But you know, certainly we can model that like you're saying, as therapists and, and business women for our kids and other people who, who might be looking for that permission

[00:51:57] Colleen: Yeah. What comes up for you, Jen?

[00:52:00] Colleen: kids,

[00:52:01] Jen: Society has unrealistic expectations of what we can, a hundred percent, what we should be doing and what we should accomplish. Um, for myself, I kind of don't have as much guilt affiliated with it anymore. I think I did when my kids were younger, but I feel like it's important to me, especially that I have a daughter.

[00:52:21] Jen: I have two sons as well, but I think it's very important for me, it's almost like a push that I have a daughter that I feel even more of a need to, to kind of plow through and, and be who I wanna be in this world and show her that that's really important.

[00:52:36] Erika: whatever it's

[00:52:37] Jen: Whatever it is she decides to do, but

[00:52:40] Erika: Yeah.

[00:52:41] Colleen: Yeah. Yeah, I think, it's that we just have such high standards for ourselves as parents, for ourselves as moms, and

[00:52:56] Erika: I

[00:52:56] Colleen: I do think that there is some bit of therapeutic. Value when we reparent our kids, we're reparenting ourselves, right? So like we kind of give them all the goodies that we maybe wish that we got that we didn't.

[00:53:11] Colleen: And um, so there's that psychological pressure there to always be on. But then there's also just the physical, you know, um, hey, we're doing a three hour orientation on Wednesday, and I'm like, I'm assuming this is for the children, right? Because the adults work during the week. No, Colleen, all the moms will be at school.

[00:53:34] Colleen: We hope you can join us. You know, and, and it could just be where I live too. I live in Orange County, California. so a lot of the wives. Have, and I mean smart lawyers, you know, that have stopped working to fully take care of their kids in this stage of life and then will return to it as they get older.

[00:53:57] Colleen: But for now are really content doing that stuff. And I, I guess I envy that, that ability to do that. And I don't, I just feel like I would be missing out on career. And I think that's hard to say as a woman that you would feel like you're missing out on your career.

[00:54:16] Jen: and isn't it okay to maybe want both? I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think it's okay to want both

[00:54:23] Colleen: Yeah.

[00:54:23] Jen: being home with your kids and also. Yeah, working or not giving up your career.

[00:54:30] Erika: Yeah,

[00:54:30] Colleen: Yeah. And I really at this point, you know, no judgment, uh, in fact, I, I wish that I could be that person that's like at the park with my kids, like. What a great, like, I get to, I get to not work and, and just stay home with them. And I, I truly did try that for about three minutes and I was like, I'm gonna kill myself and everyone around me.

[00:54:53] Colleen: I need to be doing something, you know? And so, uh, to each his own, you gotta just figure out, and he is so trite, but it's trite because it's true. You gotta figure out like who you are and then just like, like you said Erica, you just like, like kind of almost put blinders on and just stay in that lane.

[00:55:11] Colleen: When you were talking about going to the grocery store, I went to Trader Joe's the other day and I was like, this is blissful. I just went to the store by myself and I was like, I like. This is amazing. I can just browse the aisles. No one's screaming at me. I'm not like, put it back. No, we didn't have too much of that.

[00:55:31] Colleen: You know, like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, I like, I could just be present in Trader Joe's and so many times I use Instacart or whatever to just get that done. But it was really nice just being present in that task. And so that analog way of living, which is kind of what you're talking about, Erika, right?

[00:55:49] Colleen: Which is like, I just have a notes app. That's where I just download everything and that's what I use sometimes. I think that might actually be healthier.

[00:55:58] Erika: It works for me. I mean, those are just things that I do. I certainly look at new tools when they come out and you know, think about incorporating them from the group practice owner standpoint. You know, I've kind of hit the brakes on. Using AI because I feel like there's a lot more for me to learn and a lot more informed consent to pursue from clients before we implement that.

[00:56:25] Erika: You know, that's just more of a business arena type thing that I wanna do my research well before I give the green light to young therapists who are new at this. Um, I didn't have AI to write my notes when I started out, so, you know, I sound old. I sound like I'm getting old.

[00:56:47] Colleen: Like back in my in my day,

[00:56:49] Colleen: I had a quill and scroll, and I used it by

[00:56:52] Erika: when I used my jumbo pack of yellow legal pads from Costco,

[00:56:57] Colleen: Right. one of my clients once said, one, one can never have too many legal pads. It made me crack up because she was right.

[00:57:09] Colleen: So as we are sort of talking about all this stuff, what are some takeaways or questions that you guys would have for the listeners?

[00:57:21] Jen: I would love listeners to DM us and let us know what their invisible success hacks are as as busy moms

[00:57:31] Jen: we'll feature you in a future episode.

[00:57:35] Erika: Yeah, that sounds great.

[00:57:37] Colleen: about for

[00:57:38] Erika: Maybe we can even adapt some of those for ourselves if they have good ones.

[00:57:44] Colleen: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's gotta be some people out there that are, um, where you guys are, where they're like, yeah, I use these things and this has changed my life. This has been a game changer for me. Um, or maybe there's some stru, struggling straggler out there like me who are just like, well, I'm just glad here.

[00:58:03] Colleen: I'm not in it alone.

[00:58:04] Erika: I think, you know, I'd be curious what listeners would, what kind of stereotypes or tropes about motherhood they think we should leave behind. Like, which ones are just dead and you know, we should just forget. No more guilt, no more shame, just empowered mothering. What does that look like going forward?

[00:58:31] Colleen: yeah.

[00:58:32] Jen: Yeah.

[00:58:33] Colleen: I would have the question. I have two questions actually. So DM us, uh, on the Instagram or on the YouTube channel, off the chair podcast. Um, one question would be is what we're living in right now, and what I'm describing is this just like normal mother stuff, that everybody, there's like a season of life and it's just like everybody knows it once you've threw it and you're just like, you're just literally treading water and you're like, and I was like missing a tooth for two weeks and I forgot I get, have to go to the dentist.

[00:59:14] Colleen: Like that's the level of lack of self care. And I'm just wondering if other moms are sort of like, yeah, that's, it's a season or is there a bigger thing happening here that we've got to course correct. About the way that we work and the shoulds like the shoulding all over ourselves. Is there a bigger course correction that needs to be made here?

[00:59:43] Colleen: So that would be the first question. The second question is, can you live like I'm living as an entrepreneur? Like if you're a seven and you say yes to all the things, what eventually catch up with you? Or is there a way to not say no and still thrive? Or is the answer like no calling, you gotta give up something?

[01:00:08] Colleen: Um, supposed to be my two questions.

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Colleen Long, Psy.D.

Jennifer Politis, PhD, LPC

Erika Bugaj, MA, MSW, LICSW

Episode Transcript:

The Realities of Being a Mom Boss