The Healer’s Exit Plan: Identity, Legacy & What Comes After the Chair
What if leaving the chair wasn’t the end of your career, but the beginning of your healing? If you’ve ever felt torn between ambition and exhaustion, this conversation is for you.
In this raw and unfiltered episode, we sit down with Gabrielle Juliano Vilani, a licensed clinical social worker who built and sold a seven-figure group practice, only to discover that true freedom requires more than a business transaction. Together, we talk about how to refresh mental health, rebuild your sense of purpose, and find peace in the space that success leaves behind.
You’ll learn:
• How to recognize the early signs of identity burnout and rebuild your foundation before it breaks
• Why selling your practice often triggers grief and how to refresh mental health without running from your emotions
• The smartest ways to achieve revenue diversification that add stability instead of chaos
• Simple business sustainability strategies that protect your energy and profits long term
• How to reimagine your legacy beyond the therapy chair through alignment, intuition, and rest
This episode is your permission slip to stop performing success and start living it. Whether you’re exploring revenue diversification, craving a full refresh mental health reset, or finally ready to apply business sustainability strategies that last, this conversation shows you what it really means to build a life after burnout.
🎧 Listen now to The Healer’s Exit Plan: Identity, Legacy & What Comes After the Chair and discover how to heal the healer, recover from identity burnout, and craft a more sustainable, fulfilling chapter of your work and life.
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO EPISODE HERE!
Connect with us!
Website: www.offthechair.com
Instagram: @offthechairpodcast
YouTube: @offthechairpodcast
Colleen Long, Psy.D.
Website: www.claritypsychologicaltesting.com
LinkedIn: Dr. Colleen Long
Jennifer Politis, PhD, LPC
Website: www.wellnesscounselingBC.com
Instagram: @wellnesscounselingnj
TikTok: @wellnesscounseling
LinkedIn: Jennifer Politis
Erika Bugaj, MA, MSW, LICSW
Website: www.dandelioncounselingcare.com
Instagram: @dandelioncounselingcare
LinkedIn: Erika Bugaj
Gabrielle Juliano-Villani
Website: http://gabriellejulianovillani.com
Instagram: @gjvconsulting
LinkedIn: Gabrielle Juliano-Villani
TikTok: @gabriellejulianovillani
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[00:00:10] Jen: What if the hardest part of selling your practice isn't the paperwork but the empty space it leaves behind? Today, we'll go deeper than burnout into the identity crisis, the grief, and the rebuild that comes after you step off the chair.
[00:00:25] Colleen: Welcome back to Off the Chair, the podcast where we explore how therapists break free from trading every hour for dollars. Today, we're sitting down with Gabrielle Juliano-Villani, a licensed clinical social worker who built and sold a seven-figure group practice in Florida after facing major burnout. Now, Gabrielle helps clinicians scale smarter, diversify their income, and even prepare their practices for sale.
[00:00:53] Colleen: She's an expert in Medicare strategy retreats and burnout-proof leadership, and she's here to share what it really takes to step out of the chair and into the CEO role.
[00:01:04] Gabrielle: Hi. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:07] Colleen: Thanks for being here. So if you stay with us through the conversation today, you're gonna leave with so much more than just a business strategy. You're gonna walk away with a roadmap for your next chapter. Whether that's scaling smarter, stepping away, or simply finding your energy again, by the end of this episode, you'll have a checklist of the red flags that will tell you when it's time to pivot or sell, or if you just need a break, a clear 90 day playbook to diversify your income without adding more chaos to your week.
[00:01:36] Colleen: A Medicare strategy that can add a hundred K revenue without drowning in an admin. A framework for shifting from clinician to CEO and knowing which higher metric and mindset make that leap sustainable, and most importantly. The Burnout Emergency Plan, the exact system Gabrielle uses to stay regulated, focused, and free.
[00:01:54] Colleen: So if you've ever thought there has to be a better way to do this, don't skip ahead. The last 10 minutes might just be the permission slip you've been waiting for to rebuild, not repeat. Gabrielle, we're so happy to have you with us.
[00:02:08] Gabrielle: I'm happy to be here. Thank you again for having me, and I already know this is gonna be a really good conversation.
[00:02:14] Jen: Oh, that's great.
[00:02:17] Jen: I was just gonna say, Gabrielle, I have seen you over the years, and you've been such a big inspiration. I've watched you when you sold and when you've been doing other projects, and I was recently on something you did about speakers. So it's just been awesome to just see the progression with you.
[00:02:33] Jen: But I have a question for you. So what surprised you about life after selling your practice? Was there grief? Was there an identity loss relief? Like what really happened after?
[00:02:44] Gabrielle: I think there were all of those things. And you know what was really surprising to me was when you sell, it's very stressful, and there's all of these things happening. And then the day that it happened, um, which happened to be December 31st, 2021,
[00:03:03] Jen: Oh.
[00:03:04] Gabrielle: I was like, yay. Like I'm starting the new year fresh.
[00:03:08] Gabrielle: Like it was over, and I felt nothing. And everybody in my life was like, oh my God, congratulations. You just did this huge thing and um, you must feel so relieved. And I was like, I feel numb.
[00:03:23] Jen: Yeah.
[00:03:24] Gabrielle: I don't feel anything. Um, and I think it really took me. Like three years to, to work through that. And I don't know if it was just like depression or burnout or a DHD or all of those things, but my friend who was selling her business at the same time in a different industry actually had sent me this article about, um, it was really interesting.
[00:03:48] Gabrielle: I wish I could remember the name of it, but basically like when you go through things like this, there's all this like dopamine building up in your system. And then at the end, it's like you have this feeling of numbness and they had interviewed like these New York Times bestsellers and people who had like, I don't know, gotten gold in the Olympics and they all said a similar thing.
[00:04:08] Gabrielle: So I guess that made me feel a little bit better. It's
[00:04:11] Gabrielle: Not unusual, but I definitely felt numb. I definitely felt, uh, an identity shift of like, what do I do now? What am I supposed to do now? letting go of a lot of control. There were a lot of things
[00:04:26] Colleen: After I sold my practice, it's only recently was in July. It was the same kind of like. We were like, yay.
[00:04:37] Gabrielle: I.
[00:04:38] Colleen: And the kids had balloons and they were so excited, and I just thought, I don't feel anything. I don't feel different. I don't feel anything. And I think it's 'cause like you're going at 110 miles an hour for so long and there's so many ups and downs throughout the deal.
[00:04:56] Colleen: You're like, oh, this is gonna fall through. And then, oh no, we got it. And until the ink is dry. You're just like, okay, I don't even know if this is gonna happen. And then it was only until certain things started to come up in my business that had come up before that, I was like, not my problem,
[00:05:16] Gabrielle: I
[00:05:16] Colleen: Not my problem, not my problem.
[00:05:18] Colleen: You know?
[00:05:22] Gabrielle: Yes.
[00:05:22] Colleen: When you feel it,
[00:05:23] Gabrielle: As soon as it like shifted like it was done, I was like, oh yeah, the you are asking me this question and that's not my problem. We have a whole department for that. Now you go over there and you ask them.
[00:05:34] Colleen: Oh, amazing.
[00:05:37] Gabrielle: But it is a lot of ups and downs to your point. And every moment is like you're on this high and you're like, oh my God, this is gonna happen. I'm so excited. And then it's like, oh fuck. Like they send you something and you have to do something else. Or they question, what does this mean?
[00:05:53] Gabrielle: What does that mean? Where's this document? And you just feel like the rug is gonna get pulled out from you at any moment. So congratulations way.
[00:06:03] Colleen: When I. Was researching you. I realized one, it was very easy to research 'cause you're out there so much and sometimes it's hard to find what, you know, kind of what people are working on. Um, and obviously, one of the things that you've talked about a lot is burnout and regulating people.
[00:06:20] Colleen: I love your TikTok channel and just, it's like always these like tropical vibes and you're like, yeah, that's what I wanna be doing. And so you've done a great job at talking about. How you took care of yourself from burnout, but can you distinguish a little bit for listeners, how do they know when they're just tired and drained like any other person that's working a 40 hour a week job, right?
[00:06:48] Colleen: Or when it is truly like burnout, it's like crossed into this pathology category where you are going to have to start to take care of your system, or else you're gonna start to notice physical symptoms.
[00:07:01] Gabrielle: Mm-hmm. That is a great question and I think. What I noticed and the biggest thing for me, and I think for maybe other people too, is the shift is apathy. So once I started feeling like I truly did not care, not just saying that because I'm like annoyed or whatever, but like actually like. I don't give a fuck.
[00:07:25] Gabrielle: I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna just eat whatever I want. 'cause I don't care about my body anymore. I am going to, you know, every time that I would, I was still seeing clients. Not a lot, but a couple, and just like being on calls with them and being like. I don't fucking care what you're telling me right now.
[00:07:44] Gabrielle: I'm sick of hearing this story. I truly do not care. I just wanna get off this call as soon as I can. Same thing with like my clinicians. Like if they asked me something again, I was like, just, why are you bothering me? Like, go figure it out on your own. Like Google it, God damn it. Like, it wasn't just work, it was also my personal life too. So, uh, shout out to my husband for like being very supportive. I was going through that and that was the biggest thing be, and I also think that's the biggest change that I seen now in myself is like. The vitality is back and like, I'm excited about life and I want to live my life.
[00:08:28] Gabrielle: And that was the shift. I remember just like waking up one day and being like, this is your one life. Is this really how you wanna live? It is in this space of misery. I
[00:08:40] Gabrielle: Don't think So So that's the biggest thing for me, I think is the a.
[00:08:45] Colleen: When you realize that. What does that look like then? Like what steps do you start taking? Is it just kind of like a year of sitting in that muck where you're like, uh, I gotta do something else, but I don't know what it is and I gotta keep a roof over my head? Or what does that look like for you?
[00:09:05] Gabrielle: I thought it was doing more. 'cause that's how I am like just wired, which I've done a lot to kind of undo some of those things. But I always think it's, I thought in the beginning it was about doing more. I'm like, okay, well now I'm burnt out so I gotta, I don't know, add in more self-care. I have to meditate every day and I gotta go for a walk and I gotta like.
[00:09:26] Colleen: Right. I need to add more things on my list.
[00:09:29] Gabrielle: Yes. Yes.
[00:09:30] Jen: We can all resonate with this. Yeah.
[00:09:32] Gabrielle: Fix it.
[00:09:33] Colleen: Yeah. And I'm gonna become a yoga instructor now, right? I'm not gonna just take a yoga class. I'm gonna be the
[00:09:40] Gabrielle: I'll build everything where I have to, like, again, care for more people. So I think just sitting in it to your point is what helps, first of all, and doing less of course, and making things easy. And that's still something that I, that I struggle with. But you know, like I would just think like, I don't need to.
[00:10:05] Gabrielle: There's like that, um, it's not like a meme, but it's something that I read a long time ago. I think it was in an article somewhere, and they were talking about how their therapist said to just run the dishwasher twice instead of like washing the dishes and then putting them in. They're like, why don't you just run the dishwasher twice?
[00:10:21] Gabrielle: So I started thinking in those ways of like, what can just make. Life very easy right now so that I can just truly sit with this and understand what this is telling me and why I'm here instead of trying to do more and avoid my feelings, which is like my favorite way to deal with things. I know I'm a great therapist. So it is just about sitting in it and feeling it. And I also really think like when you have the energy and you're able to access this, like the opposite of burnout is radical change. So then adding in those changes, but slowly and very small and Not comparing yourself to other people, which is a hard part too, of like, oh, they're doing this.
[00:11:08] Gabrielle: I should start doing that. Okay, I sold. Now what's the next thing? I gotta start building the next thing. but when I sold, I don't know about you Colleen, but a lot of times they, you're generally staying on for the transition. And so I had a year where I was working for somebody else. Which honestly I needed, it was like I just get a paycheck every two weeks and I have PTO and a 401k with a match.
[00:11:33] Colleen: Oh
[00:11:33] Gabrielle: Like I'm taking advantage of all of this.
[00:11:37] Colleen: Yes.
[00:11:39] Gabrielle: So I did. I did. I took my paid holidays, and I just really just slowed down
[00:11:46] Colleen: Relished being an employee.
[00:11:48] Gabrielle: Yes.
[00:11:50] Colleen: Yes. Yes.
[00:11:52] Jen: So if you were coaching a therapist, let's say, a week, a few weeks after they sold their practice, what's the first thing you would tell them not to do? Would it be just not to do anything and not make any big decisions of what's in. Next.
[00:12:06] Gabrielle: I think so, I would say, you know, and I have actually done that with people who have just sold. I'm like, before we like run to the next thing and redo all the patterns that maybe got you here in the first place. Why don't we just? Slow down, enjoy, take a moment, reflect, and really move through like that, fight, flight, and freeze.
[00:12:31] Gabrielle: Because when you're in that place, you're not making great decisions anyway. So before you start building the thing or deciding that you're going to go to an ashram in India and become a yoga instructor, like why don't we just pause.
[00:12:44] Colleen: Right. And that's something that you'll hear Jen say pretty frequently on this podcast, which is like, I'm like, alright guys, love this podcast. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do a mastermind group, founders group, we're gonna like, I've got all the ideas. And she's like, well, I'm not really interested in like having more jobs, you know, and so it's a nice balance because she is thinking.
[00:13:12] Colleen: Well, I'm just gonna keep creating those patterns that got me in this original place in the first place. So
[00:13:17] Jen: I think I'm really trying to undo, and it sounds like all of us could do that and have done that. I'm trying to undo all these old patterns, which is really hard.
[00:13:27]
[00:13:27] Gabrielle: It is very hard, especially when you are entrepreneurial, and even in my business now, I just, um. Was talking to my ads guy, who's become a friend and kind of a mentor. And I was like, Ryan, I like sent him probably like five, five-minute-long voice memos of all these ideas and all these things. I'm like, what should I do next?
[00:13:49] Gabrielle: And he was like, Why don't you maximize your current business model and like, do as much as you can in what you're already doing before you try and add on something new. And I was like, Cool. What a concept.
[00:14:04] Colleen: I use chat GBT for that too. I'll say here are all 10 of my ideas this week. What is the best one to pursue? What's the lowest hanging fruit? And it will prioritize it. It'll say like, I had a TikTok idea, and they're like, tiktoks losing, and it's following, and you may wanna shift over to YouTube. So AI really helps to prioritize that too.
[00:14:27] Gabrielle: Yeah, that's one of, I think, the best uses of AI is to help with like the brain dump and prioritizing, and yeah, I use it for that too.
[00:14:37] Colleen: So. I wanna get from you, your sort of practical tools when you were like, okay, I've hit burnout. What do you do? Like, what are you, do you take yoga? Is that what you did to help with your somatic system? Or did you have to get on meds? Like, did you have to do a retreat for a couple of weeks? What did you do to get your body out of that constant fight or flight state?
[00:15:08] Gabrielle: I mean, I probably should have been medicated because I, I did
[00:15:13] Colleen: Medications are fine if you, yeah,
[00:15:16] Gabrielle: Yeah. They totally are. And I think honestly, that probably would've helped give me a really big leg up. But I didn't, I did go on a retreat, and I actually think the retreat was. Not only helpful, but it started shifting my thinking, which I needed because I was thinking from the, the free as the shutdown, the very negative thinking space, and so I had to do a lot of.
[00:15:39] Gabrielle: Work to undo that and understand why I was thinking that way, and not like toxic positivity, like life is fine, but more just like, why am I having this thought right now? What is this telling me? so that's kind of what started it. And then from there. Speaking of yoga, that kind of like shifted me to more of a, a spiritual journey and, doing more inner child work.
[00:16:04] Gabrielle: And I went through an intuitive practitioner program where we learned more about like chakras and energy and shamanism and a lot of things that have really helped me and also sound healing. So that's
[00:16:18] Gabrielle: another thing that.
[00:16:19] Gabrielle: I do like I am a sound healer, but I love receiving sound bath as well, and I found that when I was in that like deep meditative space, uh, duh, I felt so much better and I was able to access.
[00:16:35] Gabrielle: My intuition and like my, my higher self and what I truly wanted. I think the other thing that's really important is community. I'm very introverted, but I, I have my people and your people are important. That's your support system. That's what keeps you grounded. And not always just like a sounding board, but like my friends who are like, how about I just.
[00:16:58] Gabrielle: Chill with you on the couch in our pajamas, and we watch Bravo and we don't even have to talk to each other. We'll just be in that space together.
[00:17:05] Colleen: That's nice.
[00:17:06] Gabrielle: too.
[00:17:07] Colleen: That's good to have friends like that, that you can just be quiet with. Yeah. So I imagine a lot of people are gonna wanna know. What types of things you did, and I'm not in, in the interest of time, do you have someplace on your website where you have suggestions for things that people can do because those questions you're asking yourself is great if you're a therapist, but someone that maybe doesn't have that ability.
[00:17:32] Colleen: Is there a guide at almost like a therapeutic retreat?
[00:17:36] Gabrielle: I still have a spot open in my November 2nd retreat in Costa Rica. I have retreats coming next year, so you can get on my email list or on my website and look at those. And I also have a like burnout recovery toolkit guide that you can get as well.
[00:17:52] Colleen: Love that. Do you ever listen to Shandra Siva?
[00:17:55] Gabrielle: I don't,
[00:17:56] Colleen: Okay, I am gonna send you her after
[00:17:58] Colleen: this.
[00:17:58] Gabrielle: It's too me.
[00:17:59] Colleen: It's so beautiful. I, her voice sounds like it's from a different planet, and she's somewhere in Bali, and there's a man next to her playing a handpan.
[00:18:09] Gabrielle: Oh my God.
[00:18:10] Colleen: It's the most beautiful thing. And so I bought the hand pan and I was like, I'm gonna be a handpan player.
[00:18:18] Colleen: Like, I think I was having just a moment where I, I like, was just completely burnt out, and I was like, I'm gonna just play the handpan from now on.
[00:18:25] Gabrielle: Yeah, why not? I love that for you.
[00:18:30] Colleen: Okay. Well, so. I wanna do a little bit of a reset here, like a deep reset. And when I was looking over just all your stuff and everything you've done, my biggest question I guess that came up for me was, are you a clinician or are you an entrepreneur? And, You could be both, right? But I think some people that listen to us are true pure clinicians and their burnout relief and their happiness and joy is still gonna be finding a way to help others, but maybe just not in that traditional hamster wheel model.
[00:19:09] Colleen: And then there are the true entrepreneurs that are like.
[00:19:14] Colleen: This isn't like, this isn't what, I don't know. I'm like, not, my cup's not filled. And it's less about connection and, and the, the helping and more about how do I leverage what's going on right now to innovate and do something completely different and they're not happy with the days always being the same.
[00:19:34] Colleen: They like the change, that sort of thing. So, where do you lean in that?
[00:19:38] Gabrielle: I think I'm 50/50. It's funny how life is because when I got my MSW, I literally said I am never gonna be a therapist. That is not for me. And then I became one because that just kinda seemed like the natural path. And also I wanted to make more money. I wanted to help people. So that's like why I went to private practice.
[00:20:04] Gabrielle: And then I think to your point, but I can't help people in an hour one-on-one back to back every single week. That does not work for me. I. When I was burnt out or when I felt that coming, even when I first started my practice, I could see that that wasn't gonna work for me. I, no matter what I did, I just cannot work in that way.
[00:20:29] Gabrielle: And I think that's where like more of the entrepreneurial part comes from because I still like helping people. I do like a little bit of like, I still teach ces and I, I love polyvagal theory and so like that's the clinical part, but I don't wanna like. Be responsible for all of that. And that's where I like the entrepreneurial piece of like innovation and building new things and working creatively and like, I love, just how you can, you can do whatever you want.
[00:21:05] Gabrielle: I always think of like, you know, all of these. Entrepreneurs that were, shamed or cast to the side or told that their ideas were stupid. Like Sarah Blakely is the first one that comes to mind. She invented Spanx and people like laughed at her and like shoved her to the side for years and then she sold that company for like billions and billions of dollars 'cause she didn't give up.
[00:21:27] Gabrielle: So like, that's always very inspirational to me, that you can really do whatever you want in life. If you are consistent and you have, can you believe in yourself?
[00:21:37] Colleen: Yeah, and I think even as little baby clinicians when we're in grad school, we're sort of trained out of ever talking about money.
[00:21:46] Colleen: It's like this quiet socialization that if you care about profit, you're somehow less ethical or less heart-centered. but it's an artifact of an outdated training in the system that keeps us all kind of compliant.
[00:21:59] Colleen: I mean, people still today, I'll see in the Facebook groups, they're like, I'm not allowed to talk about United Healthcare is insurance. I'm like, yes, you are. CMS 2021. Transparency. It, there's a law, you can talk about it now. But somehow we're, we've been sort of socialized to not talk about money and how dare us then we're in the wrong profession because we're greedy somehow or we don't have values, or whatever.
[00:22:23] Colleen: And if you look at any other clinician discipline, chiropractors, physical therapists, dentists, MDs, they have no problem talking about money. They're like, no, that doesn't serve me. Thank you. Next. Right. And so I guess that's what I wish for our profession is that we are okay with being both.
[00:22:43] Colleen: Like, I can help you and I can be an excellent clinician, but you're gonna pay me for it. I went to school for 20 years. Right? Like, you're gonna pay me for that specialization. So do you. Feel sometimes like you have to give that trope at the same time, which is like, my mission is this, and if money comes, that's great.
[00:23:05] Gabrielle: I do, I do feel like that because I think when we talk about money, people get very triggered I think something that helped, well, two things that helped me with that were, two books. One is you're a bad asset making money, and people are always like, oh, that book is not trauma-informed. I'm like, well, it's not supposed to. Of that book. So you're looking for like more mindset and strategy, that is the book for you. And then financial feminist, what is her name? Tori something she
[00:23:40] Gabrielle: talks, yeah. Tori Dunlop. Yeah. And I like the way that she talks about how, and actually I think Jen Cero, who wrote You're Badass at Making Money, talks about this as well, that it's like.
[00:23:52] Gabrielle: It's not tied to morality. So you don't, if you make money, that doesn't mean that you are a greedy asshole. Like those two things don't need to go together. So we have to undo that. Like it doesn't mean because you make money that you are a bad person. It actually makes me a better person because then, I mean, we live in a capitalist society that is reality.
[00:24:14] Gabrielle: So if I. Can make money, then I can help more people. I can donate my time, I can donate money. I am not burnt out and stressed, and that's the better energy that I put out into the world.
[00:24:26] Colleen: And it's freedom, right? if you're making money coaching. You have so much less regulation on you than when you are a licensed clinician that is regulated by every insurance and every state board. There's so much fear that we are surrounded in just trying to provide good
[00:24:45] Gabrielle: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Colleen: quality care. And when you are, I imagine when you're doing these retreats and you're doing these coaching programs where you're not having to rely so much on the license or the. Boards that when you start to make some coin from that, you are like, oh, that doesn't hold as much power for me anymore when I get that board complaint or whatever, that doesn't hold the same weight because I have this freedom business over here.
[00:25:15] Gabrielle: Yeah, it's exactly it. And you do just feel more free. And that like also undoing this thing that I feel like they also teach us as therapists is like the only way to heal is therapy. And if you are a therapist, like that is the only way. Coaches are bad. Retreats are bad. Yoga's not helpful. Like I think.
[00:25:37] Gabrielle: That's where I also think of that fear of like thinking outside of the box because coaching is not therapy and those are two completely different things. And therapy has really helped me, but so has my speaking coach and so has my business coach. And those are totally different things than therapy. So thinking that you can help people in a lot of different ways and that, you know, there's value in that and there's still transformation in that.
[00:26:06] Jen: That's such a good point because I know even as a therapist, I would sometimes recommend energy healing and just other modalities to my clients because I feel like, you know, again, there is so many different ways to heal and so many different ways to think of things. Yeah.
[00:26:20] Gabrielle: there are. And it's like, it's different in each moment in time or whatever season you're at in your life that yes, maybe you might need therapy in these moments, but maybe in these moments you do need more energy hearing or clearing, especially if that's like, you know, important to you. so yeah, I think that's one of the things that I always see. Online is like, I can't believe these fucking coaches and they're all scam artists, and how dare they? And I'm like, I don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. There's bad therapists, there are bad doctors, there's bad chiropractors. Don't worry about them. Just do you, boo.
[00:27:01] Colleen: You did you boo. I love that.
[00:27:04] Jen: Now, Gabrielle, you know, you're a healer, right? By nature, so does that leave you now that you, you know, you've sold the practice and you're doing other things, do you still carry that with you?
[00:27:15] Gabrielle: I do carry it with me. I think that was a thing that I also, uh, maybe I do still struggle with that too, of like sometimes I just have black and white thinking, and so I was like, well, you gotta be a business strategist or you gotta be a healer. I'm both of those things, and they go together and I think for me the healing just looks different.
[00:27:37] Gabrielle: I this like sound healing retreats. That's where I feel like I feel very grounded and like more in my purpose, but it definitely I don't think it has left me.
[00:27:50] Colleen: When you're an entrepreneur, you're constantly, or at least I'm constantly afflicted with the shiny ball syndrome.
[00:27:58] Gabrielle: Yes.
[00:27:59] Colleen: Like, uh, I mean, every day it's a problem. It's a disability, I think, because I have so many ideas and unfortunately I am high on the quick start, the Kolby quick start, and so I execute the ideas so I get scorp.
[00:28:16] Colleen: Letters from the state of California. Most, most weeks. I own probably 17 different websites. My husband just doesn't even bat an eye at this point. He's just so exhausted. So is that, do you struggle with that as well? And if so, how do you manage that so that you're like, because you can't do it all at the same time?
[00:28:36] Gabrielle: That's such a good question. I do struggle with that. I also am an A DHD, so it's like it is a disability and
[00:28:46] Colleen: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Gabrielle: I have a couple of ways that I deal with this. So. First of all, I have my people, and I have my own business coach. I have my own mentors. I got Ryan, my ads guy, who I'm sending long voice memos to for him to help me.
[00:29:03] Gabrielle: I have a lot of people, other entrepreneurs in my circle, too, that have been really helpful, and other people whose success I would like to emulate someday. So that is also helpful. I will let myself get excited and then. Once that excitement happens, I'm like, okay, does this really fit in with my life and my values and what I want, like my goals?
[00:29:27] Gabrielle: So my goal is like I, as we were talking about before we started recording, I love to travel, and so I want a life of freedom where I can work a little bit less and I can travel more, or my work and travel go together. So if it doesn't fit in with me, then it's not something that I wanna do. Maybe this is like rebelling against when I had therapy clients, but I hate having a weekly recurring hourly meeting.
[00:29:55] Gabrielle: Like, I do not wanna be tied down.
[00:29:57] Colleen: Yes.
[00:29:58] Gabrielle: I don't want any obligations.
[00:30:00] Jen: I feel the same way.
[00:30:02] Gabrielle: Like, if I feel like I have to be there, I just hate it. So,
[00:30:07] Colleen: I think once you own your own
[00:30:09] Colleen: Business, they say you become unemployable.
[00:30:11] Colleen: It's hard to be on someone else's
[00:30:14] Gabrielle: Yes. So people will ask me like, you know, do you wanna, do this mastermind, and it's gonna be every week or every other week? And I'm like, no, I don't because I don't know what I'm gonna be doing on Thursday from 12 to one, three weeks from now.
[00:30:27] Gabrielle: I might be, I don't know, whatever. I might be filming TikToks, I might be whatever. So that's how I try and manage that too. I also try to work based on my energy levels, and that's a big thing. So if it requires a lot of my own emotional output or my own like energy, that takes more for me now. And again, I just think that's.
[00:30:53] Gabrielle: The COVID burnout, A DHD, chronic illness, all of those things wrapped together. Like, I just cannot do things that require a ton of emotional energy early in the morning or like back to back to back. So I think about that, like how do these things, these shiny things that I'm excited about, how do they truly fit into my business, and how is it gonna push me forward?
[00:31:17] Gabrielle: So again, thinking about what Ryan told me about, like. What's working in your business already? Do more of that first before you add something else. Um, 'cause I, I try and think of like future gaps. Is Future Gaps gonna be excited about this in a year? Is she gonna feel stretched too thin if she started a new thing today that's gonna require a ton of marketing or building a whole new website or whatever it is?
[00:31:42] Gabrielle: So that's how I try and manage it, but. I brain dump all of my ideas, too. I use Notion, or I use the Notes app on my phone, which is like very chaotic 'cause there are things in there that make absolutely no sense. But I write it down
[00:31:55] Gabrielle: somewhere.
[00:31:56] Colleen: Same. Same.
[00:31:58] Erika: I really like that the future gabs, kind of comment about thinking about how things will impact you in the future. That's really helpful. And also, I'm a Notes app fan too. Mine is also a bit chaotic, though recently they developed the capacity to put things in folders, so now I have organized chaos.
[00:32:20] Gabrielle: I should see that. I just like to have a million different notes, and it says like, I don't know, so many random things. I'm like, what does this even mean?
[00:32:29] Gabrielle: We'll find
[00:32:30] Gabrielle: out.
[00:32:30] Erika: am, I'm curious if you have advice for a clinician who might be feeling numb or secretly wants to get out. What's one brave first step that you would tell them to take?
[00:32:42] Gabrielle: Ooh, that's a good question too. I think two things I would tell them are, one, take a long, hard look at your caseload. Are those your favorite ideal clients? Is every person that you spend time with from nine to three, or however, whatever, do you really enjoy them and the issues that they're bringing you?
[00:33:05] Gabrielle: and then take a long, hard look at yourself. Get a glass of wine, get in the hot tub, whatever it is that you do, like really meet yourself and be like, is this truly? What I want to be doing and like digging. Like you have to really dig and unmask that. Or at least I think I, I know I did, and I think a lot of people that I talk to about this have to do that.
[00:33:29] Gabrielle: Like, you have to really go deep and not be afraid to tell yourself, like, no, this isn't what I want. Because that's scary. Especially if that's what provides you comfort and income or what you've always been taught to tell yourself. Like, no, I'm truly not happy in this. That's a really big deal. But that's what you have to do to shift.
[00:33:50] Colleen: Especially if you've trained all your Yeah. The other thing, too, is like, oh, I had many therapy sessions about this. It's like, but I'm a therapist. I have a license. What am I gonna do? That's like my whole identity.
[00:34:06] Colleen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So my understanding is now the big things for you, like your big projects that you focus on, are the Medicare consulting and the retreats. Am I missing anything else, or is there anything else that you're doing in the works right now?
[00:34:21] Gabrielle: Speaking, I think speaking is another thing that I love well. Jen just came to my webinar training that I did with my coach. And that was something that I also never thought I would do because, and I still get very nervous when I'm about to speak, but it used to be like crippling. I mean, I failed public speaking multiple times.
[00:34:40] Gabrielle: I used to pretend I was sick. Like I was like, when I told my mom that I was going to be speaking at a conference, she was like, No, you're not. There's no fucking way.
[00:34:51] Colleen: Thanks, mom.
[00:34:52] Gabrielle: But that's something that I love doing, and I think is so easy for therapists to shift to if that's another way that you wanna work. And it's also very needed.
[00:35:06] Jen: And I think it's so needed for therapists to step into that space because, like I joined thinking, you know, listen, I'm an introvert. I, you know, same thing with public speaking, but there were even more therapists I happened to know on that call, and they were all saying the same thing. They were like, Listen, like.
[00:35:22] Jen: We need this space in order to kind of push ourselves. And I feel like otherwise, you know, you'll, you'll stay in the same, you'll stay in the chair.
[00:35:30] Gabrielle: Exactly.
[00:35:31] Colleen: When you talked about being an introvert, I think that hits for a lot of us. I find that. I'm not, I've never been a group project person, so I was a little worried about doing this podcast 'cause I was like, I don't know, like I'm gonna end up taking the whole thing over or not doing enough. And, it's actually been really nice because you've got accountability partners and like, now I'm even to the point where I'm like texting them like, oh my God, this is happening.
[00:35:57] Colleen: What would you do? You know? And it's really nice to have. Two other people who are sort of dealing with the same stuff that I'm dealing with, because I've got a ton of friends, but they don't know the industry, like the stuff that we're dealing with. So who's your tribe? Who are the people that, like you, could talk to on a weekly basis and totally get what you're going through?
[00:36:19] Gabrielle: It has expanded a lot, and again, I'm like. Well, I just think I was telling my husband this, 'cause when I was in Denver, I was back-to-back with like all of my friends that I needed to see. I was like, I sure have a lot of friends for somebody who's introverted, but it's important. I have my business manager, who again, she also gets a lot of voice memos from me.
[00:36:41] Gabrielle: I have. Ryan, my ads guy he's also an entrepreneur, and he is very involved in like mindset work and coaching, and he goes to a ton of conferences, and I learn a lot from him. I have my friend Ally, who had a very successful SEO company that she sold at the same time I sold my practice. And she comes from a family of entrepreneurs, and she has her MBA, and she is.
[00:37:06] Gabrielle: Also one of my go-to people. I have Patrick Casal, who also gets a lot of voice memos from me. I have a whole group of like, we call them business besties, or all other therapists that I still keep in touch with. My friend Catherine, who runs the therapist network, she's also Ay d and has an MBA, so she's a good person to whom I connect with also gets a lot of voice memos from me.
[00:37:33] Colleen: Because I think when you think like, oh, I don't do masterminds. That was the first thought I had was like, well, who does she, who does she talk to? And that, and that's where I found Jen was through the Mastermind, right? It was like, it was through that that I was able to find other people that was doing that.
[00:37:49] Colleen: So I think that's so important. No matter what level you are in terms of introvert or extrovert, it's always good to have people who understand what you're going through. It's so isolating.
[00:38:00] Gabrielle: isolating and you, I hope that anybody who's listening to this, like you, considers that because I think. As therapists or even entrepreneurs, it can feel scary to invest in yourself, too. And that is where I've like found a lot of these people as well is like, you know, paying for their coaching or going to a conference or, like that's how I met Maureen, who's another person that I would consider is in my tribe and gets a lot of voice memos from me and she has success that I would love to emulate as well.
[00:38:33] Jen: Now, what are you most proud of? That you're off the chair? Are there some things that are still har,d what, and what comes up for you?
[00:38:42] Gabrielle: I think I'm most proud of unmasking and listening to myself and building a life that I really wanted because I definitely grew up with the. Mindset of you should get a corporate job and you need to work nine to five, and you need to hustle, and like that's how you build success. And I had to undo so much of that to think about, this is really success to me, and this is the life that I really, really want to live.
[00:39:13] Gabrielle: But it just felt so scary to do that, that I'm glad that I. I did the work, I stepped into the fear and the unknown, because now, I don't have to wake up with a pit in my stomach every single day.
[00:39:29] Jen: Yeah, and it seems like you really have created your dream life now.
[00:39:32] Gabrielle: I think just about, there's still a couple of things. There's always gonna be something.
[00:39:37] Gabrielle: There's always more, but generally I feel very happy and satisfied with where I'm at, and that feels good.
[00:39:46] Colleen: When you're doing Medicare consulting, you're doing the retreats, how do you not get yourself back into that cycle of you're still? Taking care of other people, and you could just as easily, now, you know, your clients aren't regular people, now they're clinicians, but you could easily just be like, oh, I don't feel like talking to Debbie today
[00:40:07] Colleen: about her practice.
[00:40:09] Colleen: Ugh, Debbie. What? You know, like, how do you avoid just repeating that cycle all
[00:40:15] Gabrielle: Well, I did repeat that cycle. I first when I first started shifting and pivoting, I just replaced therapy clients with coaching clients. And last year I was like, oh, I'm getting to that point again, and it's because he joined the same fucking thing. So I actually met with my friend Ally and we went through my menu of services and everything that I offered, and we had a little spreadsheet and I just checked in which each thing. And I did look at like as if I was getting a lot of money from it, and then just how much time it took and how I felt about So we looked at everything, and really, for me, it was more about how I felt about it.
[00:40:55] Gabrielle: And so we just had like. Good, bad, or neutral. And so everything that was bad, we got rid of. And then neutral things were what we looked at again. So I got rid of a lot of things and I shifted how I worked. So if people want, business coaching with me now, you're either coming on a retreat or we're doing an intensive, which is a VIP day, and we sit down for four hours, and we do it because I just found fit or me.
[00:41:18] Gabrielle: That the coaching became the same thing with therapy, and with coaching clients, they would buy six hours, and then they would, I'd see 'em once, and then they would reschedule, and it would be like three or four months. I hadn't heard from them. And I'm like, this doesn't work for you or for me. So now if people want coaching, it's like we just do it all in one day, and you leave, and it's done.
[00:41:41] Gabrielle: And that feels much better for my business model. So I check in. Pretty much, I would say once a quarter, with how I'm feeling about how I'm doing things, and I'll pivot and switch if I need to.
[00:41:54]
[00:41:54] Colleen: So Gabrielle, when I, there was something that I had listened to you on. This was like maybe, I dunno, a year ago,
[00:42:02] Colleen: And you were doing like an Etsy empire.
[00:42:05] Colleen: And I was like, yes, I love that stuff. So is that, was that a shiny ball? Is that something that you're still doing? Is, was it like,
[00:42:14] Colleen: Uh, that's a lot of
[00:42:15] Gabrielle: I think it was a shiny ball for a minute, and actually, my friend Allie just told me, she's like, you should get rid of that. But now it's on autopilot, and it still makes money. So I'm like, I just leave it. Uh, because at this point the templates are just out there, and because I've had so many sales, which is really nice, like Etsy pushes it to the top.
[00:42:37] Gabrielle: When people search for that, and it's part of my like email sequence, I do nothing with it. There's a customer service issue, so I've like really built this. Of course, in the beginning, it was not this way. I did everything, and it was really stressful, but now I have a VA. Who just manages it. And if there's like a customer service thing, she responds like I don't even look at it. Which is great. And so that is a good idea if that's something that you wanna build. That for me has become like, pretty much almost entirely passive. Doesn't make me hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it does make money. But if you put in the time and the effort now. It can be because people love downloadables. People love templates. People think that because we have ChatGPT now that people won't buy templates, but ChatGPT doesn't always quite give you what you want or what you're searching for. So, it's a really great way to reuse your skills and your knowledge.
[00:43:32] Colleen: When we did an episode last week, we talked about the Shawshank conundrum. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie, but it's like Andy is slowly drilling this hole while he's in prison. He's drilling this hole behind this poster, and you don't really know what he's doing until the end, which we've seen that he's carved his path to freedom.
[00:43:51] Colleen: And so that's kind of how I see. Every day therapists need to step out of this is that you, because unless you're independently wealthy, you can't just like close down your practice and be like, Alright, I'm gonna do this. You still have to have that going. Meanwhile, figuring out between sessions, how am I gonna diversify my income?
[00:44:11] Colleen: And then maybe I make enough off of that Etsy that I could take away two clients, and now I've got eight free hours a month. Right. So when you were. Starting off, did you find that you were doing a little bit of that, like you still had to carve it out in between sessions, or was it a black and white?
[00:44:31] Colleen: like done
[00:44:32] Colleen: And then start over?
[00:44:33] Gabrielle: It was definitely carving out in between sessions, and that was hard because that, again, was still bringing in money. But like the first thing that I did was I started teaching continuing education, and that was big because that was like. A two-hour chunk that I needed to find during the week, and like, move those clients.
[00:44:54] Gabrielle: But that's what started it is I was like, oh, well, I just made $500. If I had seen two clients, I would not have made $500 at that time. And so it was like, okay, so this could be a way to keep moving that. So I think of it the same way as just how you were explaining, I was even talking to someone last week who wants to switch to private pay and start adding more speaking to her schedule, as like, well, if you get one private pay client, that's like.
[00:45:21] Gabrielle: One and a half, maybe two, like insurance clients. So you can get rid of two insurance clients. You got rid of two hours, you replaced one hour. That second hour, that's what you're gonna use, like that's still on your schedule. Put it on your schedule. You need to use that to start pitching or promoting your speaking stuff or making connections with people.
[00:45:40] Gabrielle: Um, and that's what I had to do in the beginning, too, was just like. Well, I have a free hour now. I just discharged a client, or I'm gonna work an hour later tonight, or I'm gonna get up early and work on it. It's a little bit of a hustle in the beginning. There's nothing. That comes easy unless you're independently wealthy.
[00:45:59] Gabrielle: Good for those people. I would like to be one of them. You still have to work, and the passive income is not passive. You can work for years to make it passive. But like my Etsy, I started in 2023, and now it's the end of 2025, so it took almost three years. So it takes time, but you just have to be more forward-thinking and just keep.
[00:46:23] Gabrielle: Drilling or like taking the step forward when you don't know what's gonna be at the end, you just have to keep moving.
[00:46:29] Jen: From the outside, it looks like you've cracked the code with travel retreats. Freedom. I love to see it. What keeps you motivated?
[00:46:37] Gabrielle: Oh, that's a good question. I think,
[00:46:42] Jen: I love what you said about energy, 'cause I, I do that with like my energy management. I have to kind of see how much I have left in the tank,
[00:46:49] Gabrielle: I think, but it definitely seems like now you have a lot of energy to do these things.
[00:46:53] Gabrielle: I do because I have paid attention to what lights me up and what doesn't. So that's, I think keeps me motivated is like what excites me. And also, again, not shiny object, although it is sometimes, but like what fits in and what feels exciting. Um, and I think, you know, sorry to bring this up. I don't know if people on your podcast will like this, but my human design is that I'm a generator, so I pay attention to that too. Yes.
[00:47:22] Jen: I'm a
[00:47:23] Jen: generator. Yeah,
[00:47:24] Gabrielle: And if we're not excited, it's not gonna work.
[00:47:26] Colleen: So when I think about your retreats and I think about the, everyday clinic. Hesitation. One, we're just a, a frugal bunch, right? Like doctors will shell out thousands of dollars all day long to go on these things. But therapists, you know, rightfully so, they're sometimes working at $63 a session, and so they're like, I can't afford this retreat.
[00:47:52] Colleen: That's gonna be too much. And like, what is she gonna tell me something I already know? I'm a therapist. She's gonna tell me what to listen to myself. So. What do you do that's different than what the typical therapist might expect in terms of the retreats and what they get? Like maybe they don't need just that therapy.
[00:48:11] Colleen: Maybe that's the
[00:48:11] Colleen: piece
[00:48:12] Colleen: That's strong for them, but there's something else that's missing.
[00:48:15] Gabrielle: I think what's different is that we oftentimes are not doing that work ourselves because we're back-to-back with clients all the time. And what makes a retreat different is when you're home, you can't step away like that. So you always have something. There's laundry, there's school pickup, there's whatever.
[00:48:39] Gabrielle: But when you're on a retreat, you are there. There's somebody making your meals three times a day. You don't have to worry about what's for dinner. You just show up. You get to actually have the space and the time. To do the work. And I think also the most important part is really the space to integrate.
[00:48:59] Gabrielle: That's what I find is the space to integrate. And the connection actually is the second thing. When I do retreats, we do our stuff in the morning, and then you have the afternoons free. And that's when the change and the magic really happen is when you're just there and you're just being so.
[00:49:18] Gabrielle: It's really life-changing. I know that it sounds cheesy, but it's when you do that inner work and that foundational work, you carry it through every day in your business, in your life, with your family.
[00:49:33] Colleen: Is there some level of business coaching there? Where people start to realize an ROI on that, you know, it can be expensive for people. So, is there a thing that they then come away with that paid for that entire trip because of what they brought back?
[00:49:49] Gabrielle: I mean, somebody told me that in their 22 years of being a social worker is the best investment and the best thing they've ever done for their career. So there's that.
[00:50:00] Colleen: That's high praise. So that was good feedback. And I do business coaching. Um, so we do that in the afternoons with people if they want some business coaching with me.
[00:50:10] Gabrielle: And then I heard from folks. Like that, I was working with, so I added something this time where my social media manager's actually coming, and the last night of this retreat, we're gonna do like a little speaker showcase. So people who wanna do speaking or they wanna host their own retreats, they'll have like a few minutes to present, and we'll take some content for them that they can take back and use on their own socials or their own websites.
[00:50:38] Jen: That's a great idea.
[00:50:40] Gabrielle: Something, Yeah.
[00:50:41] Colleen: Love that. When I did a group called Vistage, and it's not cheap, right? And as a therapist, I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna do this. And I remember, I mean, there are so many things that you get from it, but there was like somebody in there, and it was just a throwaway comment, like, oh yeah, and then you get like the 13 five tax credit for each child.
[00:51:01] Colleen: And I was like. And, it wasn't a tax credit. It was like you could pay them 13 five. I have three kids. I was like, Alright, well that just paid for Vistage for an entire year. That one thing, right? And so that's how I start to think of these retreats. Where it's not, you can't just look at it as a flat amount that you're paying.
[00:51:24] Colleen: I sound like I'm doing an infomercial for Gabby's upcoming tree. I promise I'm not. But that's what I know. That's what people, that's the hesitation for people to pull the trigger, is the money usually. And it's like. It's so like that little flat, I guarantee you, in every single day, you realize that return on that in just freeing up your mind to not be an automaton, to not be this robotic place that's burning you out, and you're like, oh, there's a
[00:51:52] Colleen: different way.
[00:51:53] Colleen: Like that's an ROI, you
[00:51:55] Gabrielle: I also had to undo that for myself because I, well, I don't mind paying money for retreats 'cause I know, and I've been on them, but like, I thought the same thing. This one in Costa Rica in November, um, is the most expensive. And I'm like, it's not money though. I don't even think about that. I think of the value of what you get for being with me.
[00:52:19] Gabrielle: For a full week in a like eco luxury resort with your own room and a private chef and like all the other things that come around with it. I'm like, that's, that's priceless.
[00:52:33] Colleen: You talk a lot about your team and Jen. Jen, I don't know if this comes up for you, but I'm like, oh, so she's got a social media manager, she's got a VA, they're all staying with her. They're not leaving. I can't hire, I cannot. Hi. I want the help,
[00:52:50] Jen: Colleen, you're gonna find your tribe. You're gonna find your people.
[00:52:53] Colleen: But, but I wanna know, like, is there a specific place that you go when you are looking for these people to
[00:53:00] Gabrielle: This is the most important thing, and I talk about this directory all the time. And by the way, I'm like not affiliated with them at all, but another therapist, uh, who's also a copywriter, and I was gonna hire her for copywriting like last year, and she's like, you don't need a copywriter. You need a business manager.
[00:53:18] Gabrielle: I'm like, I know. How do I find one? And she told me about this directory. It's called mikala quinn.com/hire. M-I-C-A-L-A. Quinn is with two Ns and everybody. Mikala is a coach, and she teaches women how to be freelancers and VAs. And so everybody in this directory has gone through her program. So they're all vetted, and they're all women, and all of them have a prior professional career.
[00:53:48] Gabrielle: So there are a lot of therapists on there. My business manager, whom I hired, used to be a physical therapist. I found a VA from there. She used to be a teacher. So they have the skills and the organization, and I've had my OBM for almost two years now. This VA's been working with us for a year, so I cannot recommend that directory enough.
[00:54:11] Gabrielle: They're amazing.
[00:54:12] Colleen: Okay. Well, that's, I mean, there we go. There's our
[00:54:15] Jen: There we go. Yeah, definitely. So, Gabrielle, we
[00:54:19] Jen: enjoyed having you today. Where can our listeners
[00:54:22] Gabrielle: So I am pretty easy to find, especially with my name, uh, so on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. TikTok, it's Gabrielle Juliano-Villani. Gabrielle Juliano-Villani .com. I'm on Instagram at Gjv Consulting, and I have two Facebook groups. Uh, if you need help with Medicare, Medicare consulting for therapists, or if you're a group practice owner and need more help with that or income streams, it's create an abundant group practice.
[00:54:52] Colleen: Well, Gabrielle, thank you so much for reminding us that burnout isn't assigned to the end or impending doom. In fact, I think many of our greatest successes have been found right on the other side of failure, and burning out can be our crucible. The fire that scorches what earth no longer serves us.
[00:55:10] Colleen: Sometimes the blaze that clears the field for something new to grow. So thank you for sharing with us your Phoenix moment, and if you want to follow Gabrielle, she's given you her website, and she has all of her links on there, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and share this episode with a clinician who's burning out, scaling, or building something
[00:55:33] Colleen: new.
[00:55:33] Colleen: Thanks, guys.
[00:55:34] Gabrielle: Thank you.
