Trailblazer Series- From Burnout to Balance: The Clinician’s Path to Freedom, Impact, & Legacy with Gordon Brewer
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO EPISODE HERE!
What happens when you finally pause long enough to ask, “Is this really the life I built my practice for?”
In this conversation with Gordon Brewer, LMFT, founder of The Practice of Therapy Podcast, Kingsport Counseling Associates, and PsychCraft Network, we explore what it means to move from burnout to balance through purpose, faith, and intentional growth.
After 30 years in the field, Gordon has learned that lasting success starts when you know your why and build an aligned business that supports your life instead of consuming it. He shares how his own path to freedom came not from hustle, but from alignment, clarity, and community.
If you have ever wondered what it takes to create a career that is both profitable and peaceful, this is your invitation to reconnect with your purpose and rebuild your aligned business from the inside out.
In this episode, we discuss:
• How to know your why when the work starts feeling heavy or directionless
• What it really means to move from burnout to balance while staying true to your values
• Why building an aligned business is the foundation for long-term sustainability
• The mindset shifts that lead to intentional growth and authentic leadership
• How to design your personal path to freedom without sacrificing impact or integrity
Every clinician deserves to build an aligned business that reflects who they are becoming, not who they were when they started. This episode is your reminder that when you know your why, you can move from burnout to balance, step into intentional growth, and walk your own path to freedom with clarity and confidence.
Resources from this Episode:
Book: Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals - Oliver Burkeman
Connect with us!
Website: www.offthechair.com
Instagram: @offthechairpodcast
YouTube: @offthechairpodcast
Colleen Long, Psy.D.
Website: www.claritypsychologicaltesting.com
LinkedIn: Dr. Colleen Long
Jennifer Politis, PhD, LPC
Website: www.wellnesscounselingBC.com
Instagram: @wellnesscounselingnj
TikTok: @wellnesscounseling
LinkedIn: Jennifer Politis
Erika Bugaj, MA, MSW, LICSW
Website: www.dandelioncounselingcare.com
Instagram: @dandelioncounselingcare
LinkedIn: Erika Bugaj
Gordon Brewer
Website: https://practiceoftherapy.com/
PsychCraft Network: https://psychcraftnetwork.com/
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[00:00:10] Colleen Long: Hey everybody. Welcome back to Off the Chair, the show where we talk about what happens when therapists stop trading time for money and start building businesses, systems and lives that actually work for them. I'm your host, Dr. Colleen Long Long, and today's guest is someone who's been leading this conversation long before it was popular.
[00:00:28] Colleen Long: Gordon Brewer Brewer, LMFT. Gordon Brewer is the founder of the Practice of Therapy podcast, the PsychCraft Network, and the group practice, Kingsport Counseling Associates. He spent over 30 years in this field, not just helping people in the therapy room, but helping therapists themselves build sustainable. Meaningful practices.
[00:00:48] Colleen Long: Today we're talking about how to make that shift from clinician to entrepreneur, from overbooked to intentional. Gordon Brewer, thanks for being with us.
[00:00:57] Gordon Brewer: Well, good to be here. Thanks, Colleen Long.
[00:00:59] Colleen Long: you are a legend and I've listened to every single podcast that you've done, and I just have to say from a personal note. I was, and I talk pretty frequently on here about my own sort of burnout story and things got pretty dark for a while in terms of, just with the change healthcare breach and having a.
[00:01:23] Colleen Long: Over a quarter million in payroll that was due. And just trying to keep everybody employed and wondering how I was gonna do that all while having my house tied to the business.
[00:01:33] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:34] Colleen Long: And I remember it was around this time last year and I was like, really? You wanna be in the holiday season, right? You wanna kind of shift into that mode and take a little step back?
[00:01:45] Colleen Long: And I was not there. I was in another sleepless night and I was listening to your podcast. And it was like your voice was so calming and you were talking about all of the stuff that I'm struggling with and I think a lot of people are struggling with, but it was just like, yeah, it's gonna be okay.
[00:02:04] Colleen Long: it was just such a nice. Like lighthouse in the storm. It just, it was really, really nice. So I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard that feedback, but it's really good I think for therapists as they're coming into their careers and we are, we've done that sort of a decade long now practice where you kind of look up and.
[00:02:25] Colleen Long: Am I gonna keep on doing this or do I want to maybe shift to hear your voice, which is this like, okay, you know, it's gonna get rocky, but here's where I landed it.
[00:02:34] Gordon Brewer: right. Well, you're so kind to say all of that. I just, uh, I'm always, just kind of blown away when people make those kinds of comments, as long as I've been doing. you know, I've gone through a lot of different seasons and I think that's the way I like to think about it is that we move through, life, move through our practices and all of that.
[00:02:53] Gordon Brewer: And I think it's important too, and people hear this all the time for me and my, podcast is to figure out what is your why. And just keep yourself grounded in that as best you can. And, it gets messy. It gets hard at times and Yeah. And so you move through all of that.
[00:03:10] Colleen Long: I know that you were working in non-profit for a long time, and then you ended up shifting into private practice, and then later, I imagine after private practice. There has to be, and maybe this is my own projection, but after you're meeting with client, after client, you start to realize there's a ceiling here.
[00:03:29] Colleen Long: there's only so many hours in the day. Was that the shift for you that you started to create these other forms of passive revenue or income streams and sustainability?
[00:03:38] Gordon Brewer: you know, the evolution for somebody, particularly if you start out in, solo practice, the evolution of that, and usually what we refer to as a low hanging fruit is to somehow or another move into group practice so that you are referring to others, but also, creating income for yourself with that by providing a space for people to, Have a place to, practice and all of that sort of thing. And so I think that's a kind of a first place, but also just recognizing, what are the things that you, are passionate about, and it might be outside of just specifically doing, but in chair, therapy and that sort of thing.
[00:04:15] Gordon Brewer: but one of the things that, , and I think for a lot of us that get into kind of the consulting coaching space is we find out that people start asking us a lot of questions about, well, how did you do this? What did you do? And all of that sort of thing. And so it was a natural evolution of, just, okay, these are the things that I've put together.
[00:04:34] Gordon Brewer: This is how I've done it. It's not necessarily the. Best way or the, there, there are lots of different ways to do what we do. and so really figuring that out and then sharing that with others, uh, you know, kind of one of my taglines is, is I've learned a lot the hard way, and I don't think everybody else Has to do that. And so, I began sharing that with people. I think early, on I created a course. It's still out there, but I, really got fascinated, and again, this goes with the. The passion of using Google Workspace and how you could use that in the context of private practice because it's not designed specifically for that.
[00:05:12] Gordon Brewer: So I put together a course on, how I've used those tools and the, the way I like to tinker around with things. And so put that together and then put that out there and it got some traction and people were buying the course and, doing all those things. So those are just Those are small ways, but I would say for anybody that is at that place where they're feeling burned out, is to really think about, okay, what is their why? Why are they doing what they're doing? if it feels like you're doing too much and that's getting overwhelming. the big thing I think is to, look at how you can outsource the things that you don't enjoy doing.
[00:05:51] Gordon Brewer: In other words, pay somebody else to do it so that you can spend your time on things that are really gonna bring you income and do things, in that way.
[00:05:59] Colleen Long: I think most people have a lot of great ideas. About what they wanna do or what that would look like. But it's the execution of it, you know, it's the rollout of that. And you talk a lot about, I mean, at one point you hit 400 episodes, right? So you've been doing the podcasting thing way before people were, you know, the podcasting was on trend, right?
[00:06:23] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:06:24] Colleen Long: have to imagine that there's a lot of. You're just doing this thing and you're putting this out there in the air, in the ether, and you have no idea if anyone's getting anything from it. You don't know if it's working. You're like, I don't know if this is a good fit, but you keep doing it over and over.
[00:06:41] Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes.
[00:06:43] Colleen Long: about that. Like what is that about you? Is that your Enneagram type two wing three? Is that, you know, like what is that piece of you that keeps going despite there's no external validation telling you to keep going?
[00:06:57] Gordon Brewer: that is a great question, Colleen Long and I, nobody's ever asked me that. But I think as much as anything is, is that, I do get feedback from people. every now and then somebody will. Email me or message me and say, that episode really helped me, or that sort of thing.
[00:07:14] Gordon Brewer: And or when I go to conferences and people, start talking to me and just. I kind of validate what I'm doing, and I'm just doing it in my style. I mean, it's kind of like you do kinda like throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. but I think as much as anything, it's just doing what you feel passionate about.
[00:07:32] Gordon Brewer: And as the, as you mentioned, Enneagram two, the helper. I love helping people. And this has just been a platform that I started and, I think as much as anything, I tell people this, too, the key to doing anything successfully, I think is just being persistent and consistent with it. And so when I started the podcast, I wasn't sure if I was gonna keep doing it or not.
[00:07:55] Gordon Brewer: I've started, a second podcast It, you know, it's something I'm passionate about and I keep meaning to pick it back up. It's called the Kindness and Compassion Podcast, and it's still there of just having conversations with people around, living into kindness and compassion and their spirituality and all those kinds of things.
[00:08:14] Gordon Brewer: But, as much as anything, one of the things that keeps me motivated in doing it is I get you know, just have conversations just like this. with different people from literally across the world. And I think because I have been consistent with it. And made it to 400 episodes. I, when I first started, I said, no, I won't go that far with it, but I did.
[00:08:35] Gordon Brewer: and then just having the systems and processes in place to where it just runs smoothly and then having. My great assistant Rachel, who, pulls it together and I'm, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I think as much as anything is, is that there's a, a part of it that just really brings me a lot of, validation, a lot of, joy if you will, and just, yeah, being able to do this week after
[00:08:58] Colleen Long: Yeah, when we go through grad school, at least for me, it was like this sort of race. Like you're socialized, you get, you get through grade school and then middle school, high school, then college, and then you're like, what's next? And everything is this sort of brass ring. Like, I gotta get to this next thing.
[00:09:13] Colleen Long: Head down. Head down. And I think for me at least, the private practice. It was a while before I just caught my breath and was like, O, okay, is this what you wanna do? Is this what brings you joy? And I wasn't even asking those questions. I was just sort of putting one foot in front of the other, like, okay, this is, I am a psychologist now.
[00:09:32] Colleen Long: This is what I do and this is how I make money.
[00:09:34] Colleen Long: I found that, I think particularly in our profession, because our instrument is not like a stethoscope that you can just hang up on the door. At the end of the day,
[00:09:43] Colleen Long: our instrument is. Our heart, our soul, our mind, and all of our training. And you don't get to hang it up.
[00:09:51] Colleen Long: You gotta, you have to wear it for the rest of your life, for the, the rest of that day. So you do get compassion fatigue no matter how good you are at scaling that line between empathy and sympathy. You get that burnout. I think if you are, you know, seeing 25 to 30 patients every week for.
[00:10:09] Colleen Long: Years at a time. and what you're talking about that joy and letting joy sort of lead you by the nose instead of the next brass ring is a big pivot I think for a lot of people that just kind of, we all followed the the good student track.
[00:10:26] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's, um, our passions and the things that energize us and all of that change over time. I know it's shocking to everyone, but I'm approaching retirement age. But,
[00:10:37] Colleen Long: Are you actually gonna retire?
[00:10:38] Gordon Brewer: Well, that's a good question.
[00:10:40] Gordon Brewer: I mean, it's kinda like I might, I, I don't know that I'll retire as much as I'll just fade away, but, um, but yeah, so thinking about, okay, how do I want to spend the next seasons of my life, as I shared on the podcast, and you probably heard, I went through really, big transitional time in my life and experience the death of a spouse and move through all of that. And so then you start thinking about, okay, I wanna spend more time with my daughter. I wanna spend more time traveling, and those kinds of things. And so I think what happens is, is you shift.
[00:11:12] Gordon Brewer: How you spend your time, but also you look at the ways to continue to have income for yourself and really getting creative. And the creative part is, what I find fun is just kind to figure out, okay, what's a different way for me to go about doing this? what's the better mouse trap here with all of this?
[00:11:31] Gordon Brewer: and there's so much stuff that we know as therapists. about just life in general and things that are important to us, that other people find interesting as well. And so figuring out what those things are, shout out to my good friend.
[00:11:46] Gordon Brewer: Lisa Mustard who has, uh, the therapy show, I think she's still doing, I think she took a little bit of a break from it. But one of her passions is, a physical health and physical fitness and all of that sort of thing. And so she's integrated that with her practice of just really kind of thinking about those kinds of things.
[00:12:04] Gordon Brewer: And then there's other people out there that do, you know, more holistic kinds of stuff. And so figuring out the different. Directions you can go. interviewed somebody yesterday just about, low dose ketamine treatments. that's a whole new area of psychotherapy and how we're helping people and that sort of thing.
[00:12:22] Gordon Brewer: And so that might be something that would, somebody would find to do, but also it could bring in more income for themselves through the, through the referrals, but also, Being able to refer out and be able to, create income that way, so,
[00:12:37] Colleen Long: I get really excited about AI and just the possibilities that we can use to leverage our expertise. I think that's when you start cooking with gas, when you've got an understanding, just the basic understanding of what is out there and what tools are out there, and then how to take that expertise, that can become a moat for you. Separate you from every other entrepreneur out there that's using ai and really start to feel like, okay, I don't have to be in the chair every single hour now to have a sustainable practice. And it's not just one to one, now it's one to many.
[00:13:15] Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. And that, that's the key is really figuring out those things that can help you do the, the one to many, way of doing things. and really too, just looking outside our little, You know, world of therapy, uh, and that sort of thing. I mean, just like listening to, business leaders out there.
[00:13:31] Gordon Brewer: I mean, like when I first got started, a podcast I listened to all the time was Pat Flynn's podcast. on passive income. And so you get ideas from that and how to do that and just kinda learn that. world. And the other thing too, I think is really important to remember is to just to break it down into small pieces.
[00:13:53] Gordon Brewer: I think what keeps us from doing things sometimes is we look at the picture of things as, oh, this is just way too much. I just can't do that. Well, you know, it's like I tell clients sometimes, how do you eat an elephant? Well, it's one bite at a time, but not a great metaphor. But being able to just break things down into smaller pieces and figuring out what those pieces are. And so, and then even when you do that, that can take you in different directions, a little different tangents and rabbit trails that can evolve into a whole lot of other things.
[00:14:23] Colleen Long: when you're in private practice, one of the episodes that we did was called the Shawshank Conundrum. It's about. if you've ever seen the movie where he's digging that hole behind the poster, slowly by slowly, and that's how I see therapists building out their passive income streams, is that there's, they're trying to do it in between sessions, right?
[00:14:41] Colleen Long: They're trying to, you know, build their Etsy empire in between patient A and patient B, and.
[00:14:47] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:48] Colleen Long: Sometimes reality, I think, just gets in the way where you're like, I gotta go eat lunch between session one and two. And, I know I'm a seven on the Enneagram, so I get afflicted with the shiny ball syndrome.
[00:15:01] Colleen Long: I'm always excited about these new ideas, but it can become analysis paralysis because there are so many things that it's hard to roll out one particular thing. I wanna do all the things. And so how did you make that shift when you're in private practice and you're, you know, maybe you've hired some extra clinicians at that point, and so you have a little bit.
[00:15:25] Colleen Long: Is it just that where you're able to just open up a couple hours and then you're able to focus on that and you just have amazing focus to see that stuff through?
[00:15:34] Gordon Brewer: I do not have amazing focus. I will, uh, that's a, I'll own that. yeah, I've got a little, little bit or a lot of a DHD and so I get very easily distracted by things. But again, you find those things that just really catch your attention and then allow yourself to just kind of go down that trail to kind of find out more about that.
[00:15:54] Gordon Brewer: going back to the example of the Google workspace, it, it used to be called G Suite. And I got really fascinated with that and just started looking at, oh, you can do this with it. Oh, you can do that with it. And so I just started kind of putting it together and pulling just all the different smaller pieces together.
[00:16:11] Gordon Brewer: there's a writer, his name was Joseph Campbell one of his famous quotes that I love, it says that, follow your bliss and when you do, that doors will open up for you. That where you didn't even realize there were doors.
[00:16:25] Gordon Brewer: you know, that's, I'm paraphrasing that quote, but that's essentially what I've found has happened is, is that you find the thing, whatever it might be, it just might be small. It might be, you know, like you mentioned an Etsy story, you know? Oh. I've got these great worksheets and stuff that I want sell on Etsy for other therapists.
[00:16:42] Gordon Brewer: And so then you start looking into, okay, how do I create an Etsy store? And you start doing those little things, at least for me, that was energizing. And so again, kind of repeating myself, but find those things that energize you, those things that just really. Like I said, bring you joy. Just really, you can get excited about things that you can get lost in.
[00:17:03] Gordon Brewer: those are the kinds of things that I think to look for for yourself.
[00:17:07] Colleen Long: I love the Joseph Campbell quote. We must be willing to let go of the life we've planned as to have the life that's waiting for us. I remember having that in my office for so long, and it has, it applies to so many stages of life where you're like, so, you're so hellbent on it going this way, and you're like, no, this is the way it's gonna go.
[00:17:26] Colleen Long: This is the path of least resistance. Yeah.
[00:17:29] Gordon Brewer: right. And I think for most of us, and I know this has been true for me, is the hard part is when you face uncertainty, you don't know what's coming next, you maybe reach a place where you are just kind of feel like you've hit a wall and you just, uh, I'm not sure what I want with this, but I think learning to sit with that discomfort, I mean, it's stuff we tell our clients all the time just around how we feel learning to sit with that discomfort and learning to ride through those.
[00:17:56] Gordon Brewer: Kinda waves of discomfort. Those waves of, you know, grief if you will, or anxiety or whatever is learning just to ride through that. And also, one of my own conviction is, is that when you're on the right path, things will just open up for you. It'll just all of a sudden become easy.
[00:18:13] Gordon Brewer: And so I think sometimes we have to go down different trails and go down the wrong path for a while. But you backtrack and you find another path along the
[00:18:21] Gordon Brewer: way.
[00:18:22] Colleen Long: I know that you are, you're a man of the cloth. I don't know what the, the, uh, term is,
[00:18:27] Gordon Brewer: yeah. I'm a, a
[00:18:28] Colleen Long: clergy Okay,
[00:18:29] Gordon Brewer: yeah.
[00:18:29] Colleen Long: I know that in your clinical practice it doesn't necessarily, it's not one of those, you know, you're not like a Christian based counseling practice and, and you can tell too, when you're talking about sort of emotional regulation of those times of uncertainty.
[00:18:43] Colleen Long: But for a second I wanna shift to that spirituality and faith and how that keeps. Grounded. I think, you know, in my best times I've noticed that I will have a practice every morning where I'll sort of meditate and I'll say, alright, God's in charge. You're not in charge. You're just seeing what he's got planned for the day and do my best to be of service and remove me of my character defects and all of that.
[00:19:09] Colleen Long: Right? And those are my best days, and that's usually when I am. At my best self, and then by about noon, I'm white knuckling the wheel. Like, we're gonna take this over here. This is what we're doing. Right. So I wonder, as I have listened to you over the years, I wonder. That has to be something that helps keep you anchored because you do give that presence of just feeling really anchored and not like unhinged at times, which I feel like, so do you feel like your faith plays a big role in that?
[00:19:42] Gordon Brewer: I would say yes, in my title as a clergy person, I'm in the, um, clergy person in the Episcopal church. So I don't know, you know, some people are, are very familiar with that. It's what became of the Church of England in the United States, we're, really considered a very, progressive church where affirming of L-G-B-T-Q issues and have women clergy and all of those kinds of things.
[00:20:04] Gordon Brewer: And so. number one, it fits my values that I grew up with it. I grew up as a pastor's son, so I grew up, you know, around church stuff. So it's all very familiar to me, but I think it's, uh, to kind of get to your question, Colleen Long, I think, in my way of thinking, this is me and I don't have any need to.
[00:20:22] Gordon Brewer: Force onto anybody else. My, what I believe or what I think, but what I have found for myself is, is that it's not about what you believe. It's about the way of life that you create for yourself. And you know, in the Christian perspective, you, follow, what Jesus did and other traditions.
[00:20:40] Gordon Brewer: It might be Buddha, it might be Muhammad, whatever. You follow that path and what, what you find is is that it kind of goes back to things will start opening up for you and you'll be able to see things in a different light. But I think also important in all of that is the importance of building a community. faith for me is not a solo activity. It's about being with people that think like you, that, you know, have, the same values. They are, concerned about you. They love you. They are with you through the hard times. They are there to support you.
[00:21:18] Gordon Brewer: and that to me is, uh, I'll just say that's where God lives is in that.
[00:21:23] Colleen Long: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Gordon Brewer: And so, being able to connect to that. And then, there's also, I think for me, there's a mystery to it all. I mean, there's stuff that I just can't explain. and so it's just that kind of, that spiritual kind of side of things.
[00:21:37] Gordon Brewer: And so. Yeah, that's what works for me. And I think everybody has to find their own path through all of that. And there's no definitive way or right way to do that.
[00:21:48] Colleen Long: if you look anthropologically in every society, there was always some form of tribal worship. There was always some form of community that was cultivated. The way that they worshiped, whatever the thing was or whatever their faith was, it was, it was together with other people. So, you know, I think there, it's no mistake that we have these mirror neurons and networks that are lit up when we're in the presence of other people.
[00:22:15] Gordon Brewer: right. It's a, it is truly an experiential kind of thing. I can't empirically prove the existence of God. I can't scientifically prove that out for you, but I can just say, okay, this has been my life experience and this is the meaning I put to it.
[00:22:30] Gordon Brewer: yeah. And so, yeah.
[00:22:31] Colleen Long: and when you talk about the spiritual principles of just being an entrepreneur and being a clinician. One thing that I think is really important, another facet of that besides community, is being of service. And I think it's human nature to always think like, what do I need today? You wake up and you go, what do I need today?
[00:22:49] Colleen Long: I need, I need to pay my bills, or I need to do this for my kids, or I need to lose weight. What do I need? How do I feel? And when you're in a really good spiritual path, you're thinking about. Other people, like, what does she need today?
[00:23:02] Colleen Long: okay.
[00:23:03] Colleen Long: And I think that can inform business, right? Like if you're always creating your products around what is going to give to people, right? If I'm doing this podcast and I'm like, is a therapist actually gonna listen to this and go, that just blew my mind. I am so inspired by that. That was a great takeaway.
[00:23:19] Colleen Long: That makes me be so much better in what I'm doing in these passive income streams versus like, I just need a way out, you know, and coming at it from sort of selfish
[00:23:27] Colleen Long: means.
[00:23:28] Gordon Brewer: what helps with that longevity is when you're doing, going back to what I said towards the beginning, is figuring out what is your why, why are you doing this? if you're doing it just to make money, I would say go find something that you enjoy doing that will make you money and, and probably make you more money than this. I mean, that, that sort of thing. And so, yeah. And so it's finding, figuring that out for yourself
[00:23:51] Gordon Brewer: and
[00:23:52] Colleen Long: you mentioned that book, Oliver Berkman's, 4,000 Weeks.
[00:23:56] Gordon Brewer: Yes.
[00:23:57] Colleen Long: one of my favorite books
[00:23:59] Colleen Long: and
[00:24:00] Colleen Long: okay, so tell me about, when did you read that book and what did it, did it shift anything for you?
[00:24:07] Gordon Brewer: It was probably about this time last year when I started reading it or became familiar with it, and I'm sure I learned about it through some podcast I was listening to at the time. you know, I drank the Kool-Aid and bought into this whole.
[00:24:21] Gordon Brewer: Idea of, oh, I've gotta be productive, I've gotta use my time. Well, I've gotta have good time management skills. there was a point in my life with which, needed that. I needed to learn those things because things were falling through the cracks and I felt so unorganized. And so not throwing it all out, but I think just what really stuck with me is.
[00:24:41] Gordon Brewer: We can create these to-do lists of all the things we wanna accomplish and need to do or think we should do, using air quotes. and in the end, is that really what you want? And the truth of the matter is, that most of us are just focused on the day to day. You know, we're just gonna, I need to get this done today.
[00:24:59] Gordon Brewer: And so the, what that book did for me was it took the pressure off. And that I didn't have to perform for anybody or meet some sort of, standard that it was mm-hmm. Just given to me by others or whatever. But just really being able to recognize that and that also time is finite.
[00:25:18] Gordon Brewer: I mean, we've only got. Like he puts, 4,000 weeks in a lifetime. And so how do I wanna spend that time, particularly, at this stage in life? And I, I don't want to spend it by putting a lot of undue pressure on myself about things that really aren't that important to me to begin with.
[00:25:34] Colleen Long: You think about how he talks about, society after society for thousands of years. Everybody's just hardworking at whatever this thing is. I gotta just do this thing. Whether you're a coal miner and you're, I gotta get this coal and, and then you die. Right? And it's like, I hope you had a good time while you were here. Right? And, that woke me up, I think out of this trance that I think grad school can often put you in, which is like.
[00:25:59] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:00] Colleen Long: Tomorrow is not promised, and especially post COVID. I think we were all reminded of that
[00:26:04] Colleen Long: and it really sort of, I think that's where it made the shift for me, where I thought, how do I build a more sustainable lifestyle where I'm feeling filled up at the end of the day and
[00:26:16] Colleen Long: inspired and what it, what is my why?
[00:26:19] Colleen Long: As you said.
[00:26:20] Gordon Brewer: right. And figuring out what recharges your batteries. All of us need to take downtime doing those things that bring you meaning and just bring you joy and Yeah. Find enjoyment in, yeah.
[00:26:30] Colleen Long: When you created your podcast, I imagine the first couple, maybe months or even year, you were. Maybe not doing it as consistently. You just, we would record whenever or put something out there, that sort of thing. And then
[00:26:44] Colleen Long: probably got more consistent and more systemized as you went. And then it became.
[00:26:49] Colleen Long: Sort of this like media empire, this network, right? It's not just a podcast that you're doing. Tell me about that, you know, was that you, figuring out how you could help other people that were doing their own podcast? Was it the, business acumen that you have where you're like, well, wait a minute, let's figure out how this makes the most sense.
[00:27:08] Colleen Long: How did that
[00:27:09] Colleen Long: evolve?
[00:27:10] Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I think it's some of all of that. Big thing for me and my life now, it is just the importance of community and having people that you can, , share ideas with that you can lean on and all of that sort of thing. And so what I was finding, one thing is kind of like with private practice, people were contacted me about, oh, well how do I start a podcast?
[00:27:30] Gordon Brewer: You've been doing it a while, listening to your podcast. how could I start one? And so that was part of it. And then just, , having several of my friends, , and colleagues and people that I, have associated with in this space over the years. Them having podcasts and really me helping them get some traction with that.
[00:27:48] Gordon Brewer: And then also, opportunities to monetize their podcast. And so that's one of the things that we've been able to do with the network is, help, create a clearing house, if you will, for, people that want to. sponsor podcasts or do paid advertising on a podcast. as much as anything I wanted to just kind of put that network together to help with that.
[00:28:09] Gordon Brewer: I'm still figuring all of that out as I like to say, I'm building the airplane as a fly, we're getting some traction some podcasts have stayed with us, some have dropped off, but just like most everything I do, once I start something, well, I just keep doing it, you know?
[00:28:23] Colleen Long: When you were early on into private practice and I think growing a a group practice and some of the things you had talked about were just some hiring mistakes, things, you're paying contractors way too much. You realize that later on and making a lot of these mistakes. If you had to pick out the most salient things that come up for you now, that could help other early career clinicians that are maybe thinking about making this shift.
[00:28:49] Colleen Long: What would be those takeaways?
[00:28:50] Gordon Brewer: I sound like a broken record of people listening to my podcast, but the importance of knowing your numbers and knowing what's really practically gonna work, I think that's, one thing is really understanding how much money is coming in, how much is going out, how much do you need for yourself of real, of having a lot of clarity over, okay, in order to maintain my lifestyle or the way I want to live, what sort of income do I need from my practice, that sort of thing. I think too, you know, being able to hire the right people, finding people that have the same values that really kind of have your same vision for your practice. that's an important piece as well. the other piece that I think is real important that people don't think about is having enough money in reserve.
[00:29:34] Gordon Brewer: In order to sustain yourself when there are slumps in income or slumps in what's happening, or someone quits or whatever might happen. Is building that nest egg early on. And that's, what I did when I went from a solo practice to group practice. I was still working a, part-time job within the, my church context I was the coordinator for, Episcopal Appalachian Ministries, and so I was doing that job part-time and then running my practice.
[00:30:04] Gordon Brewer: So. I had income coming in, and so I used that to live on. But then the, any income that I made for my practice, I went ahead and put into savings and, kinda stockpiled what I did. then I made the transition into, full-time private practice and then also bringing on clinicians, in my practice.
[00:30:24] Colleen Long: Yeah, I, think that the numbers piece is so important and no one teaches you that when you're in grad school is looking at a p and l and understanding what your margins are and your opex and all of that. Beyond that, I also got in the habit of, or making a bad mistake of thinking I was now working on the business instead of in the business, and I was just running payroll And you know, looking back on that, it's like, well, that's a $25 an hour job you can outsource if you're going to like Tim Ferriss's book. Right.
[00:30:51] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:51] Colleen Long: Now I've just given myself a new job, not necessarily a better job. I didn't wanna run payroll.
[00:30:57] Colleen Long: and so knowing the numbers from that standpoint too, like what's your ROI, if you're spending an hour doing payroll that somebody else could have done and that hour you could have built content for a course that sells itself, that's a better leverage of your time, right?
[00:31:13] Gordon Brewer: Right. I think the other thing too, that has been a big, thing for me, and I really learned this from a client that I've worked with for a long time over the years, who does, real estate investing. And the whole premise is, is you don't have to do these big leaps in growth.
[00:31:28] Gordon Brewer: Small growth, small increments of making money, of doing different things and taking the urgency out of it all for yourself. And that goes back to that book 4,000 Weeks. I think we create for ourselves urgency about things that there's really no urgency and so, Making sure that we're, we're secure where we are.
[00:31:48] Gordon Brewer: getting started, don't jump into private practice If you're working for an agency, I like to say don't quit your day job too quickly until you know that what your private practice is gonna be sustainable and that you can operate all of that without putting a big financial pressure on
[00:32:03] Gordon Brewer: yourself. And so I think by taking that out and taking the urgency out of all of it just goes a long way at just being able to move through everything.
[00:32:12] Colleen Long: a lot of people I talk about, they'll have podcasts and people come on that are financial people and they talk to therapists about knowing their numbers, and I think the block becomes. Okay, well, I'm not a CPA, so I don't know my numbers, or I didn't know how to run a p and L until I had a mentor that showed me how to do it. But I feel like today with ai, I mean I can put my p and l in an LLM and it will spit out for me more information than I ever got from a bookkeeper or my CPA in terms of this is where you're going, this is your trending. and, and I'll say, you know, I'm thinking about doing. So how much would I need to make to make sure that this is sustainable over time?
[00:32:51] Colleen Long: Well, you could take back this many hours and you could start to do it this way. And it doesn't have to be a black or white binary thing of you either are an MBA and you understand finance, or you've gotta hire some expensive financial planner. I think nowadays we do have a lot of tools at our fingertips that can help consult.
[00:33:08] Gordon Brewer: right. I think too, is it, it's really not that complicated. I mean, if I figured it out. It's not that complicated. I mean, and so when you understand the basics around accounting and just understand around, your assets and your equity and, and all of that sort of thing, it starts to make sense.
[00:33:26] Gordon Brewer: And then, uh, another big thing that was just a huge, just kind of mind blowing kind of thing that happened for me was learning about Profit First when I first read that book. And then had, Mike Mcal on the podcast. that was a huge game changer when I really figured out, okay, it's about allocating percentages rather than specific dollar amounts.
[00:33:47] Gordon Brewer: And so then it made sense, and then it took a lot of pressure
[00:33:50] Colleen Long: right. alright, so last question I have for you, and I know you, you've spoken about maybe shifting into retirement. What does that actually
[00:33:58] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. I don't know that I will ever, I'm not gonna just sit on the beach and drink margaritas. That's not my. My thing, I'm staying, on the go. But, I, probably look into, selling my group practice or merging it with another practice and then, continue to do the podcast and consulting and that sort of thing, as long as I could do that.
[00:34:18] Gordon Brewer: but even now, I mean, now that My group practice is very, self-sustaining. It's really running well. I'm really, really proud of the group of people that I've got. It's a small practice. We have, excluding myself, we have five clinicians. four are full-time, one is very part-time and an admin person, and it basically runs itself.
[00:34:38] Gordon Brewer: that has been a good thing. And so I'm already doing kind of retirement kinds of stuff. I'm traveling a lot more, gonna be going to Patagonia in January. And so that's gonna be, you know, just doing those bucket list things while I'm, while I
[00:34:52] Gordon Brewer: can. Yeah.
[00:34:53] Colleen Long: Well, Gordon Brewer, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your heart with us today. You are such a model for what's possible when therapists combine business acumen with compassion.
[00:35:03] Gordon Brewer: Awesome. This is great, Colleen Long. Thanks for
[00:35:05] Gordon Brewer: having Okay.
[00:35:06] Colleen Long: if our listeners wanna hear more and they, they haven't heard you yet, where would they go?
[00:35:11] Gordon Brewer: so you can go to, anywhere you listen to podcasts, and it's the Practice of Therapy podcast. And you can also go to my website, just practice of therapy.com. And also the PsychCraft Network is just psych craft network.com you can find everything you need there.
[00:35:27] Colleen Long: Beautiful. Well, thank you Gordon Brewer.
[00:35:29] Gordon Brewer: Thank you.
