Trailblazer Series: How Shalene Kite Rebuilt Her DBT Practice and Redefined Clinician Burnout
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO EPISODE HERE!
In this episode of Off the Chair, host Dr. Colleen Long sits down with Shalene Kite, LPC, DBT LBC, RYT, founder of DBT of South Jersey and Rebel Mente, to talk about how she transformed her DBT practice into a thriving business that challenges clinician burnout and empowers therapists to build freedom through aligned entrepreneurship.
From building a team of more than twenty clinicians to launching a national training brand, Shalene shares how she turned her skills as a therapist business coach into a movement for mental health professionals who want to lead without losing themselves. She explains how her background in dialectical behavior therapy and yoga shaped her approach to leadership, balance, and passive income for therapists who crave a more sustainable future.
This episode dives deep into what it means to grow a purpose-driven DBT practice, create systems that prevent clinician burnout, and redefine success beyond the therapy chair. Shalene’s story reminds every listener that passive income for therapists is not just a dream but a strategy that works when led with clarity and heart.
Key Topics Covered
How Shalene rebuilt her DBT practice after experiencing clinician burnout and found a more grounded way to lead
What it takes to build passive income for therapists while staying true to your mission and your clients
How a therapist business coach helps clinicians systemize, delegate, and grow without overwhelm
The mindset shifts that protect therapists from clinician burnout and promote balance in business and life
How to diversify income through training, consulting, and creative offers that extend your impact
The connection between a thriving DBT practice, emotional resilience, and long-term sustainability
Why working with a therapist business coach can transform how you think about leadership and legacy
If you have ever wondered how to move from clinician to CEO, recover from clinician burnout, and create passive income for therapists that reflects your values and purpose, this episode is your roadmap.
Connect with us!
Website: www.offthechair.com
Instagram: @offthechairpodcast
YouTube: @offthechairpodcast
Colleen Long, Psy.D.
Website: www.claritypsychologicaltesting.com
LinkedIn: Dr. Colleen Long
Jennifer Politis, PhD, LPC
Website: www.wellnesscounselingBC.com
Instagram: @wellnesscounselingnj
TikTok: @wellnesscounseling
LinkedIn: Jennifer Politis
Erika Bugaj, MA, MSW, LICSW
Website: www.dandelioncounselingcare.com
Instagram: @dandelioncounselingcare
LinkedIn: Erika Bugaj
Shalene Kite, LPC, DBT, LBC, RYT
Website: http://rebelmente.com
Instagram: @shaelenekite
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[00:00:10] Colleen: Welcome back to Off the Chair, the podcast for therapist, healers, and clinicians who are done trading their time for money and ready to build something bigger. I'm your host, Dr. Colleen Long, psychologist, entrepreneur, and recovering over functioner. Who knows what it's like to build a business?
[00:00:27] Colleen: Sometimes you want to escape from Today I am flying solo and I couldn't ask for a better guest to join me. Shalene Ano Kite. She's a four time entrepreneur. Counselor, yoga teacher and DBT expert. She runs a thriving 20 plus clinician group practice in New Jersey. Leads Rebel Mente and somehow still finds the time to create the Rebel Minds Learning collective, stabilize and scale, and even a Disney themed therapist conference called Clinically Ever After.
[00:00:59] Colleen: Basically, she's the kind of rebel therapist we all secretly wanna be when we grow up. Shalene, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.
[00:01:05] Shaelene: Thanks for having me. It's always like funny, strange, exciting to hear your intro read back to you,
[00:01:12] Colleen: did I get it right?
[00:01:13] Shaelene: Yeah. No, that, that was everything. But when I hear it, I'm like, oh, wow.
[00:01:18] Colleen: And when you, you obviously are an entrepreneur and you have all of these irons in the fire, but when you think about how your week is divided up, what, where do you spend the most time? Is it planning the Disney event every year? Is it in your group practice?
[00:01:33] Shaelene: Yeah. Well the Disney event's new, so we'll see how it goes. And it came up. And rolled out and everything like in a rapid fire way. So there's not a ton of time that I have to dedicate to that, but I think the most effective thing has been like finding ways to just batch and block out my time as opposed to doing a little bit of this, like mentate business in the morning and then DBT in the evening.
[00:01:56] Shaelene: That doesn't really work out. So I spend, I would say about two days of my week or more mente themed, and the Disney stuff falls under that. And then. Like one and a half. I'm starting to scale back the work that I spend in my group practice. And then the rest of the time I try and leave some white space in my calendar for , whatever comes up.
[00:02:15] Shaelene: And also to try and leave space in my calendar for my life things so I don't have to do those on the weekend,
[00:02:21] Colleen: yeah. When you think about. How you've scaled and all the things that you're able to successfully kind of keep in the air. What are your sort of top hacks? Do you have a great, in ea, do you, are you really organized? Do you have
[00:02:37] Colleen: great systems?
[00:02:38] Shaelene: help is super important and systems are really important. I think that it could be really, it feels really overwhelming, like the idea of finding a person to be your assistant and to get your vibe right and your voice right, and to be able to be in your brain and think ahead of you.
[00:02:55] Shaelene: but I do think it's something that without that help will limit entrepreneurs from being able to scale. that's definitely really important. am I organized? I mean, I don't know, like my office is a mess right now on the floor. It looks fine up here, but there's like crap plugged in over there and I've got like a heated mat over here.
[00:03:17] Shaelene: Like it's messy down here. And I've got different systems for, I think part of what's helped me though, like I know that my systems work for me in terms of organizational stuff. But being okay with knowing that changes. Like, so sometimes I'm very great at putting things into my calendar as tasks and doing that, and then sometimes I'm writing them down on a post-it note and sometimes I'm, and I just have started to know and accept like, this is just kind of my way of working.
[00:03:43] Shaelene: And the less that I fight that and resist that, the easier it is. It's like, okay, I'm into post-it notes right now, like this is gonna be my way. and then, yeah, like you spoke a little bit about systems. I think that, I run a program called Stabilize and Scale with my friend Katie May, and we teach other group practice owners the business side of running a therapy practice.
[00:04:01] Shaelene: And one of the things that we say is like, if you have the same problem more than once and it's giving you grief, or if somebody's asking you the same question more than once, then it's a systems issue. So I need to be able to, I need to be able to have that where I can say. Hey, you don't know how to do this thing, but this is where the system is, and so go find it and if you can't figure it out after the system, then we have to fix and adjust the system so there's no like true delegation without having those be solid, tried and tested and easy to find.
[00:04:30] Colleen: I wanna sort of back step for a minute and, before we go into , the business and the brand , and before all of the stuff that you are now doing, I think , the. Bent in this particular podcast is that , we do try to talk a little bit about the dark side of our profession, and we're socialized to not talk about that and just be like, everything's great, and it's just about the
[00:04:53] Colleen: mission.
[00:04:54] Colleen: And I'm just like, happy to be a clinician. I'm just here to help people. And instead, like, I do feel like there's so many people suffering in silence in a broken healthcare system where they are burnt out and they don't know how to get off the wheel, the hamster wheel. And so they just take on , five more clients.
[00:05:13] Colleen: Or I could do weekends, or I can do evenings and like, I'm just curious, did you have any of those sort of crucible moments that broke you open into this new way of how you ran your practice?
[00:05:27] Shaelene: For sure. , I think like any good thing that I have in terms of, these different businesses and different things that I do or different decisions that I'm making, they've all come from a rough time. So like. People might see on Facebook that I'm having a conference in Disney World like, but what they don't see behind the scenes is I was like really scared that nobody would come and then I would have to pay $40,000 to Disney World for nobody coming.
[00:05:52] Shaelene: You know what I mean? Like that level of stress and the, but there's no, there's no great juicy reward without having risk like that. I think like back to days when I was working community mental health. I was working three jobs. I worked community mental health. I worked for group practice and then I would teach yoga and I wasn't even making like combined probably like $50,000 in doing all of that, which is so crazy.
[00:06:15] Shaelene: I mean, that was a long time ago, but it's really crazy to think about that. I was just hustling, hustling grinding. And that's not the only reason I opened my group practice. Like I opened my group practice because there was a need in my area. There was nobody doing DBT in my area.
[00:06:28] Shaelene: And at the agency we were doing DBT and people would get better and then they would come back 'cause there was nowhere for them to go. So I kind of was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. And so I started doing it privately, offering comprehensive DBT. And I remember at one point I was running four DBT groups every week by myself.
[00:06:46] Shaelene: They were awful. So I had like this mini DBT program by myself and I was completely maxed out and I was just like, not even from a burnout perspective. 'cause I don't even think I had time to pause and consider that I was burnout. I was just. Okay, like I should open a group practice that makes sense is the next best thing.
[00:07:04] Shaelene: And then that goes really well and it's great and it's scary, but it's going great in the first couple of years. And then things get hard and you realize that you didn't know how to run a business and you were just kind of winging it and wanting people to be happy and not wanting to be a community agency and wanting people to feel valued without tagging about numbers.
[00:07:22] Shaelene: But then you're like, well, shit, I need to talk about numbers or else. Nobody's gonna have a job. And so, yeah. And so there was like a dark period with that where I had a moment with my leadership team and I was really honest with them and I was like crying in the meeting and I was like, listen, like had I seen this back in the day, I don't know that I would've chosen this.
[00:07:41] Shaelene: It's really it's really hard. And then through that comes, my team thankfully, really rallying behind me getting systems together and we're in a better place now, but. I say all of this just to say like, none of it comes easy. If it were easier, somebody else would be doing whatever it is.
[00:07:57] Shaelene: But I also tell people all the time, whatever idea you have that you're sitting on, if you see somebody else go out and do that thing, you're gonna be really pissed. Like, that was my, I was gonna do the Disney thing, or I was gonna start that DBT membership, or I was gonna start that podcast. And so. There's no shortage of ideas.
[00:08:14] Shaelene: There's a shortage of taking an idea and moving it into action and that crunch period of building the practice. I think for a lot of people it's like, how do I get out of one-to-one if one-to-ones my income? Like there's no secret trick to that. Like there are probably little things that people can say to you.
[00:08:31] Shaelene: Try to start doing longer sessions and see them every other week so you have some time without losing money. The, and I mean that's there and that's valuable. But I also think taking a really serious look at your life and saying, okay, this is gonna be hard for X amount of time.
[00:08:44] Shaelene: What things can I make easier?
[00:08:46] Shaelene: What help can I get in my personal life? What help can I get anywhere to help soften that so I can push this through and get to the other side. That's something for people to consider.
[00:08:57] Colleen: We had an episode a couple weeks ago about the Shawshank conundrum. Have you seen that movie?
[00:09:03] Shaelene: Yeah, it's been a long time.
[00:09:05] Colleen: A long time? But essentially, when the main character is carving his path to freedom, it's like this little poster.
[00:09:13] Shaelene: Yeah, the
[00:09:14] Colleen: The wall and he's just carving. And first you're like, this is insane. What is he doing?
[00:09:19] Colleen: And then you realize at the end what it was. And I sort of see that as every entrepreneur therapist's journey because , unless you're independently wealthy, you can't just like stop the hamster wheel and then be like, okay, I'm gonna focus on some real things that move the needle. You sort of have to straddle both of those worlds a little bit.
[00:09:39] Colleen: So do you remember how you did that in between sessions to build this newer thing?
[00:09:46] Shaelene: Yes and no. Like I think that, when I started my group practice, I was working three, like I was working a lot. I wasn't working community mental health by that point. I had quit and was just working privately for a group, but. I mean, like, I didn't really know what it was like to not be grinding all the time.
[00:10:02] Shaelene: So by the time I made it to the group practice, it just felt like a natural next best step. And I do think it was a good time. I had a wedding to plan. I waited till after the wedding and kind of was like trying to do what I could to get my ducks in a row. But I mean, I jumped all in. I signed a five year lease, which was terrifying.
[00:10:17] Shaelene: A five year lease with a like six office suite. And it was built from the ground up. Like that was really, like, I remember thinking, oh man, I hope we make it five years. Like I don't, and then, there was this natural kind of like a honeymoon phase of being a business owner where like, it's exciting, it's new, it's yours.
[00:10:35] Shaelene: And so you want, like, there, there is a part of it that feels very easy because this is your thing. You have a hundred percent motivation to push it through because this is gonna benefit you and it's gonna benefit your mission and your impact as opposed to. I'm not gonna go 110% for like, the agency that barely pays me or, things like that.
[00:10:55] Shaelene: So some of that just comes naturally and a lot of that pushes you through. But yeah, I mean, at the time I didn't have a child. Again, I waited till, we got through our wedding and then I just kind of like rallied and pushed. And then in that, again, that honeymoon stage of at least owning a group practice, everyone's excited.
[00:11:14] Shaelene: Like the employees are excited that. The clients are excited. The community's excited, and so that just like naturally pushed us through. We expanded within a year. We doubled in size and then COVID happened, and I think COVID has really changed the landscape for a lot of people too. So I also think like what my story is like is gonna look a thousand times different than anybody else because of COVID when it comes to leaving your community mental health job to do private work.
[00:11:41] Shaelene: Making the decision to start a group practice. That doesn't mean you shouldn't, but it, like, I would never sit here and compare my experience to what somebody doing that now would be, because there's just so much uncertainty. Things are scary. I wouldn't, I don't know that I would've stopped myself from doing it either, but it's just different times make for different pressures,
[00:12:02] Colleen: Yeah. Are you guys in network? Out of network?
[00:12:05] Shaelene: So we've been private pay for seven years and we're a very highly specialized practice. We're one of less than about 40 programs in the world that hold a certification for DBT. And in the state of New Jersey, there are I haven't checked in a while. Last time I checked there were about 15 certified clinicians.
[00:12:25] Shaelene: My practice has five of them, so we're highly specialized. But I will say like, I don't know if my, any of my clients or anyone at TPT of shelters, he's gonna listen to this podcast, but, 'cause I don't wanna make any promises, but we haven't told our community, we have just applied to go in network with an insurer, which is a huge change for us, and it's a huge.
[00:12:44] Shaelene: Risk. It's very scary because my top clinicians make about 40 to $50 more than what the session rate will be. And so, a lot of people will ask, well, why in the world would you make a decision like this? And I would say that it's something that's been on my mind for years. I've gone to insurance companies.
[00:13:04] Shaelene: I wasn't happy with their rates and, there was no negotiation. And so we just never did it.
[00:13:09] Shaelene: But right now I think that the landscape has changed so much and it is so much harder to get clients with tech companies being involved in mental health and with insurance companies buying up group practices and kind of like closing out private pay folks.
[00:13:25] Shaelene: And so for me it's a risk to do it and it's a risk not to do it. So there's that. But the other reason is just from a values perspective, like I'm personally tired of. Only seeing people who can afford to come to therapy with the way that the world is right now.
[00:13:41] Shaelene: It no longer is like enough to say, you know what, the rates aren't good enough.
[00:13:45] Shaelene: And so it's gonna be a big change, transition for us. Again, I'm not a hundred percent sure it's gonna happen. We're like, we've in the, we've put in our application, we know what the rates are, the rates suck. But you know. This is the life, it's the life of a showgirl. It's the life of a business owner in this space.
[00:14:04] Shaelene: You know what I mean? Like, there's no, you have to, you gotta pivot. You gotta be agile. And I will say too,
[00:14:08] Colleen: do?
[00:14:08] Shaelene: I know that this podcast is probably geared a lot towards therapists who are trying to figure out like, how do I get out of that one-to-one space? And I'm sure there are some group practice owners and other entrepreneurs like listening to this though.
[00:14:19] Shaelene: Funny, not funny. I had a therapist who was new to the field and they came on. And we were very surprised that they left and they left in what I think both of us would agree was not a good way. Very stressed out, very burnt out. Incredibly stressed about finances and not having enough clients, like not filling fast enough, which is like a common problem in the group practice space.
[00:14:39] Shaelene: But, particularly private practice, it takes months to fill somebody up. And my clinicians make commission. So if you're not working, you're not making money. this person made a comment to me. In the exit interview, which was not, it was not my favorite time. I don't think it was their favorite time.
[00:14:51] Shaelene: Like we kind of all acknowledged this. There was a lot of like emotionally charged energy. And the person had said, I was requesting to meet with you and you didn't wanna meet with me. And I said, I didn't meet with you because, you hadn't gone through the other channels that were there to help fill your caseload.
[00:15:04] Shaelene: And so for me, you have a supervisor, you have a, if you weren't doing those things, there wasn't anything to, there wasn't anything to meet about. And I said that we would meet at our next, like scheduled time or something like that. And the person said, I saw that I don't think I put this on my bio, but because I'm crazy and just for fun I plan Disney trips as a, like a, like I'm a travel agent essentially, and I plan people's Disney trips.
[00:15:26] Shaelene: That's like a new, thing. And this person in their exit interview said I saw your planning Disney trips now. maybe if you weren't doing that, you would have more time. I thought to myself like, man, well, would she meet with me if I was booking a trip?
[00:15:37] Shaelene: And so, obviously really unhappy to hear that. And at the same time, in reflection it's like, when I have a problem, I don't make enough, I don't make enough money from DBT, my group practice. So I am going out and I am finding other ways to make money. Like I have created these other businesses.
[00:15:55] Shaelene: So then I that, DBT of South Jersey isn't the linchpin for me because I can't just pour everything into me like I have have to make things good for my clinicians. I have to make things for people who are there. So it's like there's no ill will about that. It's just kinda like, okay, I gotta find another way.
[00:16:09] Shaelene: And so I have a DBT membership. I do speaking consulting. I have a Disney conference now. I have an online conference now. I plan people's Disney trips. I think like people can look at that a couple of different ways. Do I have to be doing that? Does that sound ideal? No. I mean, like, don't let the guise of entrepreneurship fool you into thinking that like, hustle life is still a good thing.
[00:16:29] Shaelene: not the answer. It's not like, don't be by burnt out by the system and community mental health, but be burnt out by all of your businesses. But I do think that there's something to say about like, this is what works for me. These are all things that I'm really passionate about. There are things that bring me a lot of joy and they're really fun.
[00:16:44] Shaelene: I'm an A DHD brain, and so I could never, DBT of South Jersey is my longest job. Like I've never been at a job as long as I've been at dbt, south Jersey. So like that's always gonna be something that's a part of my makeup. But it's also, it also is like, okay, I have a problem. I have a skillset. I'm gonna go find a solution to that.
[00:17:02] Shaelene: You think that has also been a big part of the entrepreneurial journey is like. I don't need to be stuck in just one thing, even with having a group practice and if it's not other businesses. 'cause again, I don't want people to be like, well, I should just go create four other businesses.
[00:17:15] Shaelene: That's not normal. That's not like, that's not what I'm saying. If you wanna do it, great, like go do it. But if not, like, think about what you can infuse all of that. Your time is money. Your time is like your greatest marker for a return on investment. And so if you're working, grinding in whatever you're doing, whether you're working for someone else or you're working for yourself and you're hating your life, like, think about.
[00:17:35] Shaelene: How can I get some of my time back? it's a money issue, how can I make more money while getting some of my time back? What kind of help do I have already available to me that I can delegate, automate, systemize to make that the investment? So for maybe, for some people it's I just want more time.
[00:17:49] Shaelene: I think. I think all of us want more time. So thinking about that as like the other , force, not just money all the time.
[00:17:55] Colleen: How do you not let perfect be the enemy of the good when you are executing this stuff? Because a lot of people have ideas all
[00:18:04] Colleen: day, and then they just find themselves 10 years later doing the same thing.
[00:18:08] Shaelene: just don't, like I think that I have perfectionistic parts, but I'm just so over that, like, I'm just so over it. I, can't say it's a huge. Struggle. I want things to look good when they go out, when they're representing me. So like if somebody on my team is, writing an email out and I'm like, the formatting looks weird, like, I'm gonna pay attention to those things.
[00:18:29] Shaelene: But you know, I have a training coming up this Wednesday for a university, and I'm nervous about it because it's a university. they've hired me to come in, they're paying me a lot of money and I haven't finished my slides. It's in two days and I haven't finished my slides. Like they're not done. And so I think that, is a part of me that feels really uncomfortable with that, that perfectionist part's like shalene, like what do you mean your slides aren't complete? Like they should have been complete like a week ago. I'm thankful that there's a bigger part that's like, this is your wheelhouse. Like you're talking about DBT, you're gonna be able to talk about this even if you don't have slides.
[00:18:59] Shaelene: Part of that change. Comes from a lot of anti-oppressive, anti-racism work of just like me associating perfectionism with capitalistic patriarchal, and I'm like, oh, I'm not doing that. So, if the vibe is, it needs to be perfect, it's not gonna be a good fit for me.
[00:19:18] Shaelene: And yeah, I mean, I totally agree with what you're saying. Like just get something done and put it out there. And let it be, put your imperfect thing out there and see if anybody comes, see if anybody pay, and then see how it goes.
[00:19:29] Shaelene: And you know, maybe you'll be surprised that it didn't have to be at the level that you thought in order for people to want to buy it. You know, people your knowledge. Like people want your skillset, people want what's up here. So how you package it isn't as important in my opinion.
[00:19:44] Colleen: When you think about how you get off the chair, right, and when I say off the chair, I just mean the traditional model, I think there's a couple different, well, there's a lot of different ways that we can go and some of that is people become CEOs, they essentially learn the an MBA.
[00:20:02] Colleen: In the mean streets of just doing the practice and building the bridge as you go. And so you really start to embody that CEO role. You learn how to build culture. You learn the difference between being a leader versus the manager. And it's all about systems. and you go that direction. And then there are some people that are like, I don't wanna manage a
[00:20:21] Shaelene: Oh, a hundred
[00:20:22] Colleen: I,
[00:20:23] Colleen: like I, that's not for me. I'm a solopreneur. I wanna figure out like how to build a netsy empire or just do something on my own. So how do you know yourself well enough to know which of those things fit for you to make those choices?
[00:20:37] Shaelene: I'm thinking about it in two ways. One is like my personal self, and then one is, what I would want other people to hear. I think that answers are pretty similar in starting with like, what's something that you can talk to somebody about. Like throughout dinner and not really, you don't need to check a book.
[00:20:54] Shaelene: You don't need to be like, what's just something that you can talk about all night? you feel good when you're talking about it. You feel confident, you feel like it's valuable. You want people to know more about it. And so you can just kind of like go go. There's something in that.
[00:21:05] Shaelene: There's something in there for you. So for the person that's one-to-one and doesn't wanna manage people because Yes, like group practice ownership, I think maybe like. Five, 10 years ago, that was always the thought, like, well if you're not gonna be one-to-one, then you need to be a group er. And that's not it.
[00:21:19] Shaelene: So I'm happy to hear you saying that. 'cause managing people isn't for everybody
[00:21:23] Colleen: And it's not always freedom. Sometimes
[00:21:25] Shaelene: it sometimes it's more work for the same or, less for people. So yeah, I think that's, that's consideration. But I also think, like even with my clinicians, I've spent some time with some of them in trying to coach them to do this.
[00:21:37] Shaelene: So like one person starting to do. assessments and she's making a lot more money in doing one assessment than she would with doing one-to-one. And she has some behind the scenes work that she has to do with report writing and things. I have another clinician who you know, I was asking her this question, like, who are the clients that you love working with? I really love working with athletes. you know, just kind of like ironing that out with her. She created a workbook Skills for Athletes and she's gone to local girls softball teams and talked to them about how to get grounded before their games. And she did a CE workshop.
[00:22:07] Shaelene: And so it's cool 'cause I'm helping her kind of like build what her brand is gonna look like. my clinical director is really great as a leader and so Katie and I brought her into Stabilize and Scale as a contractor and she runs a monthly group for. Clinical directors called Elevate Your Leadership.
[00:22:23] Shaelene: And through that she's gotten, she's been able to speak and she's created her own workbook and resources and now she's making like a little social media account. And you know, I think the problem for most folks in One-to-One is their mind, like it's hard for them to see what they haven't seen happen. And so for me, people just say like, I don't know how you did it. And I'm like. Well, I mean, I had the idea and I just kind of like it. And so I think this concept of like being out of the box for clinicians is paying attention to that. Like there's something there. If you have an idea, you see someone and you're like, I could do that.
[00:22:55] Shaelene: Or I, I could do that.
[00:22:56] Shaelene: Or I, I wonder, think about what the smallest piece of that is that you can take now in terms of action to start moving you forward to start to gain gain some momentum, you know?
[00:23:06] Colleen: yeah, when I talk with a lot of entrepreneurs, and one of the common themes that we all struggle with is shiny ball syndrome. you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I have a flurry of ideas. I'm in my notes and I'm like, okay, BB, B B, and I have all these different things, and then the next week I'm onto something else and it drives everyone that works with me nuts because they're like, what are we doing?
[00:23:31] Colleen: So how do you keep yourself on track with like, you're like, these are the things I'm gonna do this week, and if this is a good idea now, it'll be a good idea in two
[00:23:42] Shaelene: I mean, I sit here and lie and say that I'm good at that because I'm not, 'cause I'm the same like I'm. Pretty sparkly and wanna do the, I'll probably say that right now. I'm getting to the point where like, I don't have time anymore. So like I'm starting to really rationalize it myself of like, girl, come on.
[00:23:57] Shaelene: Like, you're not doing that. You don't have time for that. that's not happening, like, so cute. will say a couple of different things. One is my team is adapted to that and depending what space you're in, like if this is your. I, because it's different for a group practice owner with a leadership team.
[00:24:12] Shaelene: Like you can't do that to your team. You can't be like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do this, but we haven't finished this. So like having somebody that is gonna kind of like in and channel you, I think that's really hard for them because they're always gonna defer to you. So I've actually, because my practice.
[00:24:28] Shaelene: Has the systems it needs, like essentially my practice has been stabilized in order to scale and really can run without me. I stepped out a lot more to stop getting in the way, so I stopped doing stuff
[00:24:38] Shaelene: like that. myself, I will say that it's important for my va like my VA team to know. And recently there was a, a web person who's so great, who was working for me and he had given feedback to my va and he was like, normally I need a little bit more time to like put these things together.
[00:24:54] Shaelene: And she told me. And I told him like, thank you for the feedback. It's heard, this is how Shalene works. So, you know what I mean? Like there is this like, I want the feedback 'cause yes, I don't wanna stress somebody else out while also knowing like, I do need someone who can keep up with me. So not just saying like, don't be so shiny.
[00:25:11] Shaelene: Like I, yeah, I need to be reigned in and I, I work like this and so I need someone who can keep up with me. like an Im, that's an important consideration too. I think the smart thing that I'm trying to do is I'm trying to make, I'm trying to make all my work smarter, not harder. And so what that looks like is like if I'm being invited to speak somewhere be a talk that funnels into one of my audiences.
[00:25:33] Shaelene: Like going, getting invited to speak at a conference is great, but like if you don't have something to sell or like. Something to funnel all of those people into, it's really a missed opportunity. when you think of like making one thing, think of how you can then expand that into a bunch of other things that funnel into that.
[00:25:49] Shaelene: Like an ex, an example be, you know, my person who has this DBT for, workbook. do workshops for, she could do a free workshop for people on the outside and then that could filter into a group for her. Like that could be the trip wire to a paid group offering. with coaches, she could work, she could do ce, she could do training, she could do speaking.
[00:26:07] Shaelene: And then at that speaking event, she can say, and here's my workbook. And so like trying to have these bundles of whatever that offer is and not have them also scattered like, well, I have this one worksheet in an FC shop for this, and then I have this other one that you can buy on my website. Like trying to have groups of products that all fall under the same umbrella will help people to work.
[00:26:30] Shaelene: Smarter, not harder and not get so lost. and wanna say yes to the next sparkly thing, they can, but at least they have a little bit more time.
[00:26:37] Colleen: I really think it's about diversity. It's like, if you were investing in stocks, the advice would be that you would diversify your portfolio. And I don't think it's any different as a clinician that I can't, it can't be the linchpin, as you said your license and your practice and your ability to like see one patient one-on-one.
[00:26:56] Colleen: There's gotta be these other things as we're navigating a really broken system right now, there's so many bullets coming at us in terms of hiring issues, staffing shortages, remote workers, quiet, quitting, double dipping,
[00:27:12] Colleen: the insurers becoming the payers, and then being able to claw back and audit.
[00:27:18] Colleen: So
[00:27:18] Colleen: what are the. The things that you are noticing have been really some of the pain points as a group practice owner now versus pre pandemic. are you noticing the same like hiring issues or admin hiring issues?
[00:27:35] Shaelene: the, probably the biggest, it's not necessarily, I mean, it's an issue that practice owners have to pay attention to, but it's also. Understandable is everyone's bandwidth has changed. You know, like pre pandemic, our session targets were 25 sessions a week for full time. It's just not like, it's not, nobody can do it.
[00:27:53] Shaelene: Like, it's, it's very to do that. And so we lowered our, standard to 23 and I would love to lower it even more. we can't right now. And I, I hope we to a place where we can lower it to 20. But yeah, it's just not sustainable. And I think that. Anybody who's a group practice owner who was hustling pre pandemic, who like was about that life and worked in community agency, you can't be stuck in like, when I was in LACI worked three nights a week while I worked full time.
[00:28:20] Shaelene: Like, and you know, leadership team and I like, we were stuck in that because we all did that. Like we were grinding, we got paid shit. And then when it was time to transition. We saw clients three nights a week. We came in on weekends. My clinical director was pregnant with her third child. Like we killed ourselves like to do this.
[00:28:37] Shaelene: But that's not like a badge, that's not a badge of honor. It's not that anything to be proud of and like we don't, you know, the next generation or you know, the next generation of therapists coming up, they don't need to do that and they don't want to do that. And they've already identified that they're not going to do that.
[00:28:49] Shaelene: And so you have to make your group practice adjust to that and be a place that's going to be. Supportive, like truly supportive of having work-life balance. And that's really hard to do when insurance companies don't pay. When companies are flooding the markets and now it's harder to get intake referrals.
[00:29:07] Shaelene: It's harder to get enough people. It's a cha, it's a challenge to do that, I would say.
[00:29:12] Colleen: I wanna shift gears for a minute and talk about parenting and just being a mom in all of this, right? Like, I've got three kids. I carry mom guilt all day long
[00:29:21]
[00:29:21] Colleen: I truly love being an entrepreneur. even if I wasn't a clinician by training, I'd be doing some sort of shiny ball shit somewhere else, right?
[00:29:29] Colleen: And so my kids were after I sold my practice, they're like, mom, you sold your practice so like you can just hang out now and just like
[00:29:35] Shaelene: You are like, mommy has other things to do.
[00:29:37] Colleen: I'm like that's, I'm not gonna do that. and I love them dearly and I'm always struggling with like, okay, soccer game, this, I wanna be here, I wanna do this craft with them.
[00:29:48] Colleen: So like how do you, or have you found a balance that you strike, that you are like, mommy is this type of person, just like you do with your staff. You're like, this is how I work. I'm not this type of mom, I'm this type of mom. How do you do that?
[00:30:03] Shaelene: Yeah, I mean, I think I had to work on a lot of that in my own therapy of just like I'm not, and I never would have been the kind of mom that's like, there was a good example in my, my son is in first grade and last year I was one of the room moms, but I was a room mom alternate, which was like the perfect situation.
[00:30:21] Shaelene: Like I just showed up if someone else couldn't. Supported them, but I didn't have to. I was like, this is exactly where I need to be. but the ru moms who were amazing, they were moms. And it's not like I'm not a mom. It's not like I'm not a good mom, but like they were mom moms. And what I
[00:30:35] Shaelene: mean
[00:30:36] Shaelene: by
[00:30:36] Colleen: Yeah. I call it mommy
[00:30:37] Shaelene: yes. And like, what I mean by that is I, there was a party, I think it was like a Valentine's Day party or something, and I was supposed to pick up like a pretzel tray. And I said, yeah, I will. 'cause I'm not baking anything. Like I will go pay some. I'll go get that. Yes. So first of all, I show up to um, day party or whatever, and everyone's, all the moms for all of the other classes are all outside because they have to wait to get checked.
[00:31:00] Shaelene: In the, first of all, I forgot the pretzels, so I didn't even pick up the pretzels. I showed up with nothing. these moms had like wagons of shit, like cupcakes and, like, oh my God. Like what? What I don't have, I don't have a wagon. Should I have a wagon? And when we were pair, when we were preparing for it, one of the moms was like, I'll make strawberries, cut in the shapes of hearts.
[00:31:20] Shaelene: And I was like, oh, wow. so I didn't bring the pretzels. I don't have a wagon. I'm not cutting out shapes of things, but I'm okay with that. Like I just know that that's never going to be me. And I love that that's who they are. And I'm glad my kid got to have strawberries cut out like hearts and I'm glad that.
[00:31:37] Shaelene: We had backup pretzels in the classroom and it was fine. And crisis averted like everyone, you know, it was fine. I just know that that's like not me, and I can appreciate that about myself and I can appreciate the mom, moms who are out there doing that, who like, that's their thing. It's just not, it's just not my thing. Also, yes, to your question, like I think that my house is kind of shaped to, this is how our house works. Our house is more non-traditional in that sense. My husband used to work in. Mental health. And when COVID happened, he got like an uh, like, kind of like took a layoff. cause we had a six month old and they wanted him to start like, working in the hospital.
[00:32:11] Shaelene: And we were like, we're not seeing that we was a six month old during this pandemic. he rode that out and then he works for me part-time and is kind of like a stay at home dad. And so like, our roles look different. Like I'm, the one who brings all of the money that comes into this house. Even the money that my husband makes comes from.
[00:32:28] Shaelene: My business is. And so my son's just kind of like used to that. And he'll say, you know, mommy, are working at home today? Will you be in the office today? Are you gonna pick me up from my, from the bus today? Like, he'll ask those questions, but I don't think, I think he doesn't know any other way. And we get to do a lot more really cool stuff because of that.
[00:32:46] Shaelene: You know, like probably the most traveled child that I know compared to other kids because we have only one child. And because I work really hard to be able to do those things. I will say how I kind of like filter through some of these decisions now is recognizing this old, I'll always be a hard worker.
[00:33:03] Shaelene: I'll always be a hustler, but again, I'm trying not to. Hustle just to hustle and be stuck on that grind wheel. And so that means that not every opportunity is an opportunity that you have to say yes to. So, you know, I been invited to speak at retreats and things like that, and it's like, well, just because I can doesn't mean that I should.
[00:33:22] Shaelene: So if it's not something that I see myself in front of an audience that I'm gonna be helpful to, and that can kind of like filter back into something that I'm offering. I'm probably not gonna go unless I really just want to go to that place or something like that, you know? to be like a strong incentive because as you start to do more things, you'll get more opportunities.
[00:33:41] Shaelene: And saying yes to everything means that you're saying no to other things. And for me right now, that's saying no to like time with my husband and my kid and being away and stuff like that. So it really has to be worth it.
[00:33:53] Colleen: You seem so well adjusted and,
[00:33:56] Shaelene: 'cause it's like it doesn't catch me at and it could be. any day.
[00:34:01] Colleen: Well, but, and it could be all of your DBT training, right? Like you really understand how to check in with your body
[00:34:09] Colleen: and yourself and regulate yourself when you're like, okay, I'm burning the candle at both ends. I need to take a break. Do you think it's some of that?
[00:34:17] Shaelene: I think so, I think DBT is like my, like it's my life. And I don't mean that in a way of like, I mean, it's my life. Like I live my life from the lens of a DBT philosophy. I don't teach yoga regularly anymore, but like, that's, that's a of my, that's a part of it. And honestly, I keep hearing the word from like my therapist and other practitioners, perimenopause, and I'm like, what? Like I'm only 37. And they're like, you, well, yeah, this is gonna start, these things are gonna start happening. And I think I just got, I've been in this season of like, I literally can't feel like this anymore.
[00:34:51] Shaelene: Like I can't feel so much back pain and so much like moodiness and feel, you know, like just bloated or not good in my body anymore. And so I've. Really trying to take myself seriously and deeply listen to my body and, give myself a limit of like, you know, you're gonna work from like the hours of 10, 30, 11 to four every day because that's when you're able to do it.
[00:35:14] Shaelene: And that's gonna give you plenty of time to work out and to do the things that fo good to you and to meditate You know, go to Pilates and go to the chiropractor and like do these things that your body needs as opposed to continuing to do your life at a pace where your body, you're kind of just dragging yourself along even though you feel like shit and you're burnt out.
[00:35:31] Shaelene: And that's like for everybody, right? Like trying to really tune into the frequency of your bandwidth because your bandwidth changes from time to time. People talk about burnout all the time in context of being a therapist or just not even therapists, like at work. I had a, um, one of my, my main va, she used to be a nun, and she left, she's like 40 years old, and she left being a nun because she was burnt out being a nun.
[00:35:55] Shaelene: Like, she was like shelene. they had our every minute scheduled of our time, like rest and missionary, like everything was scheduled. And so I just think like if you're a therapist that's burnt out. And you're like, it's work. And if I can get it work, yes, it is. I'm sure it's work.
[00:36:10] Shaelene: Like we're in a, we're in a field where we have to give our energy out and we have to hold space for other people, and that takes our energy. So yes, but also look at your, your life picture. Your family can be burning you out. You chronic pain can be burning you out. Like, what are the things that you can just make these small, I go like this with my hand because I'm always thinking of like, just turn the knob up a little in the area of taking better care of yourself, like.
[00:36:33] Shaelene: Drinking more water or you know, or things like that. Like what is within your control that you can manage. So I've been trying to really take that seriously and not get, and not be perfect with it because that is the area where I struggle with. Like, it needs to be 110%, or if not, why do it?
[00:36:49] Shaelene: And then I'm like sitting down eating cookies at night and I'm like, well now I feel like shit and I didn't do anything. So that plan's not working. So just trying to like really tune into myself and ask. What do I want? What do I need? And to listen to that message with action, not just Okay. You know?
[00:37:04] Colleen: right. Yeah. I think we all sort of get burnt out doing whatever. You do something for 20 years and you're gonna get burnt out. It's like Larry David and Seinfeld. He's like, I mean, have you ever been in a car with someone for seven hours, like afterwards you wanna kill them? So yeah, there's that whole element to it.
[00:37:28] Colleen: I think. In our field. It's so unique because any clinician discipline, whether it be like physical therapist, dentist, physician, they come in, they do a thing, it's black and white. They say, I'll see you next month or whatever. But for therapist our tool, our stethoscope is our body.
[00:37:47] Colleen: like we can't hang it up at the end of the day like everybody else.
[00:37:52] Colleen: And as good as you can get about being a skilled clinician and knowing the difference between empathy and sympathy and being able to like put that client's file back in your file cabinet and go on with your day. I have noticed that after 20 years of practicing and just talking and talking, that I can't talk to people in a regular way now, like phone calls, meetings, I'm like, I try to avoid them at all
[00:38:18] Shaelene: Oh yeah. And paying attention to that limit. Like I, I have gotten really good at just saying like, no, I went to a wellness fair with my team and I'm like walking around all the tables and there was this company there that was like energy assessment. Solar Electric, like that kind of thing. And like, I was interested in what they were saying.
[00:38:37] Shaelene: 'cause my, I was like, well, my bills are really high right now. She was like, fill out this form. And so I fill it out and I put my email on there and she's like, oh, you have to put your phone number there. And I was like, I don't want anyone to call me. I was like, I barely want you to email me. So, and they were like, well, we're not gonna be able to do it if we don't have your number.
[00:38:51] Shaelene: I was like, well then I'm not a good fit for your program. Like, I'm not, I've had similar things where somebody's like, a financial advisor or something. I was asking questions about. Can we hop on a call? I'm like, I can't. So anything you say to me needs to be in an email. Like, so I've gotten a lot better at just saying like, I don't, and I've had people in my, this is harder, but I've had people in some of my programs, Richard, can I just text you?
[00:39:12] Shaelene: And I'm like, you're not gonna catch me on a text. Like just, you know, send me email that's a this for everything to stay in one, one space. So I've gotten a lot more comfortable with that. and it's great. It's lovely. I highly recommend.
[00:39:25] Colleen: I got your email auto respond, and I was like, that's genius. Because it was like, Hey, I got your email. So it's acknowledging that they sent it to the right place. And then it's also this like one stop shop for like, and these are all the places you can get your answers. You don't necessarily have to have a meeting with me.
[00:39:42] Colleen: So I love yeah, yeah. And those are just like little systems, right? So like, again, what's the problem that's coming up more than once. People are emailing me and then they're like, and then I feel really stressed. Because I need to acknowledge that it got there. Well, what if I start orienting people to what it's like, like, oh, you, it might take a couple days to respond to me.
[00:39:58] Shaelene: Here are things that you might be looking for. and then I just know that that's there and that's taken care of and I don't, so again, there's like little, systems that we can put in place to help protect our energy and our bandwidth, and to also help our, our clientele to feel supported and, and, to get what they need.
[00:40:14] Colleen: Alright, so last question I have for you, and this is just more out of my own curiosity. I love technology, all things ai. I love just making our lives easier.
[00:40:23] Colleen: As clinicians, what are some of your favorite AI tools that you use or tech that you use, or even just things that have helped you as an entrepreneur?
[00:40:37] Colleen: Maybe it's a book or a program. Like what are the. The sort of goldmines for you that really shifted your way of thinking.
[00:40:42] Shaelene: I love all the things that you said, and I am not a techie girl. Like I, when I can figure out how to use a resource, I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then, see that also happens behind the scenes is like my brain being like.
[00:40:55] Shaelene: You need to figure this out. There has to be a better way. And then I'm like in this stress response of like, do I try Motion or Asana or Notion or Clickup or, and then I, I'm girl, like why are you doing this to yourself? So again, then I just go back to post-it notes and things, things that I love I do use all of the time.
[00:41:11] Shaelene: I mean, I use CHATT PT all the time. and I'm constantly using it in a way to. Help me figure out what I might be missing So like, here's my plan for promoting my online Disney event. I'm gonna do this in this. If you were a mar, if you're looking at this from a marketing perspective, what am I missing in the areas of email, Facebook, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:41:32] Shaelene: write me a nurture sequence framework for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Help me with my funnel. the right questions in chat. GBT, that's a big one. What else do I like? I really like Slack for communication and having everything in one place with my team. my social media manager uses Airtable and it was one of those things that was like on my list of, should I look at this?
[00:41:49] Shaelene: And just got too overwhelmed. I didn't look at any of 'em, but I'm liking that because every month she sends me a filming list and it's like, is this filmed? Does it do like everything's in one place? I, I love that so much. It looks so great. and then your other question was something about me.
[00:42:04] Shaelene: What was it? Oh, like a book or resource or what was a game changer? Yeah. Profit First system Manage Your Money. So Mike Mitz wrote that book, but Julie Harris wrote a book for clinicians and I highly recommend it
[00:42:19] Shaelene: so you're not, essentially the, the is like you're not taking all of the money and then paying everything, and then whatever is left over is what you pay yourself.
[00:42:27] Shaelene: You're, allocating for your profit, so you ensure that you're always paying your yourself something. and I love that and I use that. And so that's wonderful. And I think any, any, it's for a regular profit. First book is for any business owner, so that one's a great one. traction by Gina Wickman, the EOS system.
[00:42:43] Shaelene: So stabilize and scale is EOS informed changed for group practice owners and therapists
[00:42:50] Shaelene: and yeah, that was like the most, I'm very biased 'cause I'm the owner of Stabilize and Scale and I'll say um, right before I, Katie and I started implementing the, those principles. Like taking a, a method and making serious changes to our practice.
[00:43:05] Shaelene: Like I was, it was a dark time, like that's when I was crying to the end. I couldn't sleep and I was worried about making payroll and I was working harder. I had just bought a new house and I had really shitty accounting um, before and uh, I it was like January, 2021. We just moved into this house.
[00:43:22] Shaelene: And we were going over the numbers and I was like, I don't think there's enough in here. And she was like, oh, you just might have to skip paying yourself this week. And I was like, what? Like I, you know, and the other thing I'll say about that in terms of like a resource or a tool is just, you know, on hand when you're making a decision to invest in software services people, things like that to help your business, you can't go out of your means.
[00:43:44] Shaelene: But also know that going cheap is expensive and I have paid a lot of money. For bad accounting advice that cost me thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in the long run. gut. I'm not an accountant, but like I knew that I, I was like, I don't I don't think she knows what she's talking about anymore.
[00:44:01] Shaelene: and ended up going with team that was a lot more expensive, but I feel very comfortable. I did the same thing with a website. I went cheaper and my website got hacked and people were coming to look for DBT training and we're seeing like. Soft porn. So that was a horrible time. so think about that.
[00:44:20] Shaelene: Like, think about that.
[00:44:21] Colleen: No publicity is bad publicity. Maybe that drove your traffic.
[00:44:26] Shaelene: That was pretty horrifying.
[00:44:29] Colleen: therapist is
[00:44:30] Shaelene: yeah, it was really bad. So just thinking about that too, like if you're on the fence and something's more expensive, you might see yourself. Spending money, money, money, money for like a year or two with this other person and then be with that new, that other person that was more expensive in like two years anyway, because shit got terrible.
[00:44:46] Shaelene: So that would be another big piece of advice.
[00:44:50] Colleen: One more question. Okay, so partnership. Do you regularly, like, I know you said you have a partner with Stabilize and Scale. Is that kind of like your biz bestie? Is that your person that you like bounce ideas across? Like who's your person that you sort of talk with every day and you're like, help me work this out or help me roll this
[00:45:09] Shaelene: Yeah, I have a couple. I mean, Katie definitely her and I had very similar size group practices. We were both DBTs specialized. so we started with a workshop. We did a workshop for other DBT. Group practice owners like the DBT because they're different things. Like every type of a testing practice a DBT practice are a little bit different. So we did that. It went really well. And then yeah, just kind of like, like addressing all the problems that we had. We had read traction. Um, Katie had invested even more in going through EOS with her company.
[00:45:37] Shaelene: We took it, we, tweaked it, we added onto it. I remember our first group of stabilizing scale. We had a six page like workbook that we were using with them, and it's like 150 pages now. this, this like method that we've developed. So in terms of all of those things, yes, a hundred percent. I'm also a part of a, I wanna put in air quotes Mastermind group because it's really a group chat.
[00:45:56] Shaelene: like we, when we, when all got together, it was like, we're gonna meet every quarter and like, we literally never do that. Um, we do meet up when we're at events together, and that happens and we've been able to see each other. But when I'm running, what do you guys think of my new, I got a new logo for all the Disney stuff.
[00:46:10] Shaelene: What do you guys think of this? Oh, I think the color needs to be stronger in the back, things like that. So yeah, I have people who are even, like, even just, I have a lot of established entrepreneurs from the therapy space. That are similar to me in different ways in my circle. Um, even if you're not, like you don't have that, just try and find other people.
[00:46:28] Shaelene: Try and find other people who are doing things that you wanna be doing. Show up to events like conferences and things like that. Start going to those things. Start meeting people to expand your circle. start applying to be on podcasts, those kinds of things. The more people you meet, you'll start finding people that wanna be or are doing the same things as you and just say.
[00:46:46] Shaelene: Hey, do you offer consulting, like as a paid thing or hey, do you wanna get together and just talk about this once a month? Like if you're in the same space and create a bit of a mastermind? I have a friend who is not in the therapy space at all, and she came over a week ago, asked if we can go for a walk.
[00:46:59] Shaelene: 'cause she's thinking of buying a franchise, like a workout franchise. And so she was like, just as you as a business owner, you're not in this space, but like, what do you think about, what are questions you would have? And so finding other people who wanna be doing more and then meeting together that's, that's all you need.
[00:47:14] Colleen: Yeah. It's hard, man. When you're momming and you're therapist, they're both so isolating. It's hard to find your people. But yeah I love that advice. Well, Shaylene, this has been amazing. I really appreciate you just being so real
[00:47:30] Colleen: and. I think a lot of our listeners are gonna feel inspired by your story and all that you're doing.
[00:47:36] Colleen: Where is the best place that they can find you if they wanna learn more?
[00:47:40] Shaelene: Yeah, find me on social media at Rebel Mente, R-E-B-E-L-M-E-N-T, at Rebel Mente on Instagram. Rebel Mente under, she lean on TikTok, but they're pretty much the same. So if you follow me in one place, you'll follow me everywhere. if you're interested in stabilizing scale, you can, I still post things on there, but you can go to group practice scale.com.
[00:48:00] Shaelene: Rebel mente.com is where my DBT membership lives and anything Disney related is there as well. But social media has like all of the things that I'm doing,
[00:48:10] Shaelene: so check me
[00:48:11] Colleen: All the things. I love it. I love it. Well, if you're ready to stop trading hours for dollars, make sure you subscribe to Off the Chair wherever you listen. Follow along on Instagram at Off the Chair podcast and share this episode with a clinician friend who needs a spark of rebellion. Until next time, I'm calling long reminding you to build a life you don't have to escape from.
[00:48:30] Colleen: That was Shalene Kite Living proof that you can be both a healer and a builder, both soft and strategic, both clinician and entrepreneur. She's not just teaching DBT, she's rewriting what it means to heal ourselves while healing others.
[00:48:47] Colleen: Hey guys, before you go, please hit subscribe, share this with a friend, and come hang out in our Facebook and Instagram community. At Off the Chair Pod, you'll get daily reminders that freedom isn't just a fantasy, it's a workflow.
